# So, windows 8?

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I've been trying to put my finger on why, exactly, I am not enjoying Windows 8. (To be fair, I did go into it with the expectation that I would hate it, though even then I didn't know why I thought I would hate it.) But I think I've pinned it down. It's because of this:

He complains that apps are full screen in metro. Metro is designed for the average user who generally only cares about doing one thing. Had they not also included desktop this would be a totally valid complaint, but as most power users can and should just avoid metro in most cases, I don't think it holds water. Also they aren't always full screen.

This, right here, is why I hate Windows 8. It violates the guideline of modelessness. I actually hate modes when dealing with my UI. I hate that my computer might behave radically differently when it is in one mode as opposed to another. This means that when, for example, I have to help my technologically handicapped family sort out their problems, I have one more point of data to consider (are you in Metro mode?) that can significantly alter the nature of the solution I provide.

I hate this. I don't think I can properly express how much I hate the idea of Metro on my PC, or on any PC I might have to work with. Sure, I can always just switch to desktop mode and forget about Metro... at least until my idiot sister calls me up at 3AM because her computer isn't working the way she expects and she can't get on facebook so she can read about her stupid friends' little rat dogs or find out all about how her ex-boyfriend passed out puking drunk at a frat party. Then I have to think about Metro, because she's exactly the sort of developmentally arrested customer Microsoft had in mind when they created Metro in the first place.

Call me a backwards Luddite, mock me for detesting change, whatever. I don't give a shit. I think there is a reason the Windows 8 launch went so poorly, and I don't think it was fully because MS confused their message.

I don't understand your problem. Metro applications behave MUCH more consistently than before Windows 8. You search, access settings, manage permissions and share data the same way across all metro applications. You don't have to hunt through various toolbars and hope the developers stuck to convention. This is a huge step forward for providing tech support for your families. That being said, I don't use metro apps on my laptop at all. I am in the desktop the entire time. In normal usage, most people wouldn't even notice I was using Windows 8.

It doesn't matter if it shits golden rainbows and hands out brownies sprinkled with fairy farts. It is still 2 distinct modes of operation that I have to remember when dealing with a support issue.

I find it hilarious how many people say what amounts to "I don't use Metro at all." And they don't see anything wrong with Metro being shipped with their system. If it's just useless bloody cruft, why is it there? Whatever happened to people being discerning and conscientious about what gets installed on their systems, instead of swallowing whatever useless tripe Microsoft wants to pump into them? When did useless bloat suddenly become okay?

Another reason to not use the desktop to store files!

...as if you didn't just get done saying how you never use Metro and always use desktop. Now you say, don't use desktop for this one thing. Which is it?

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I find it hilarious how many people say what amounts to "I don't use Metro at all." And they don't see anything wrong with Metro being shipped with their system. If it's just useless bloody cruft, why is it there?

Why is multiple modes a bad thing? Microsoft essentially gave users the same old mode and a mode that lets them not totally destroy their computer by accident. I don't get the tech support cynicism of it. It's a huge step forward from a tech support perspective.

Whatever happened to people being discerning and conscientious about what gets installed on their systems, instead of swallowing whatever useless tripe Microsoft wants to pump into them? When did useless bloat suddenly become okay?

When were people ever discerning and concientious about what got installed on their systems? That's part of the problem that Metro solves. It's less useful for power users, but it's tremendously useful for the average user, which is nowhere near to anyone on this forum. The average user doesn't care about the control panel; the average user cares about a secure browser, a secure email client, and being able to install programs without fear of the computer becoming disfunctional. Metro delivers that experience without sacrificing the desktop. By most metrics, desktop is the useless bloat and metro is the useful mode. For power users it's the opposite, but don't mistake them(yourself) for the majority of users.

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When were people ever discerning and concientious about what got installed on their systems? ... for power users it's the opposite, but don't mistake them(yourself) for the majority of users.

That's exactly the problem, isn't it? I don't recall "normal users" complaining about Vista or Windows ME, either...

But leaving that aside, why on earth did Microsoft not ship a Metro version of Office? This leads to exactly the situation FLeBlanc is bemoaning - even casual users will be forced into desktop mode by Office.

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But leaving that aside, why on earth did Microsoft not ship a Metro version of Office? This leads to exactly the situation FLeBlanc is bemoaning - even casual users will be forced into desktop mode by Office.

And I'd agree that Office doesn't make much sense in that regard (I feel like it was Sinofsky related corporate politics more than anything). I just don't get the hate for it being multi-modal. If either of the modes made the other one worse I might understand, but in my experience neither suffers by nature of the other existing. It's like saying you wouldn't buy a TV because it can also stream netflix or do any number of things tvs can do these days; it still functions great as a tv, I am not going to be pissed because I can also use twitter on it if I wanted to even if I never would.

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I just don't get the hate for it being multi-modal. If either of the modes made the other one worse I might understand, but in my experience neither suffers by nature of the other existing. It's like saying you wouldn't buy a TV because it can also stream netflix or do any number of things tvs can do these days; it still functions great as a tv, I am not going to be pissed because I can also use twitter on it if I wanted to even if I never would.

I'll admit that I'm from the school of thought where "every option that a application has is a failure, because the developer was unable to make up their mind", but even ignoring that, having modal software with a different interaction paradigm in each mode is surely not a good thing.

It's hard enough to explain to a customer over the phone how to operate the save dialogue, without having to worry that their might be multiple modes of save dialogue that look and operate differently...

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there are some new standard Win+key shortcuts for use inside apps (Win+Z brings up the toolbar that appears when you swipe the top/bottom edge and Win+I brings up the settings bar that appears if when you swipe the right edge, though these can also be invoked by hovering the mouse to the right edge of the screen or right clicking).

After 2 decades, Microsoft finally realises that combining the CTRL and META keys was a horrible idea? Now if only Linux distros would realise this too...

And not break shortcuts either... (I'm still trying to figure out why Alt+Tab broke when I installed Ubuntu 12.04, the shortcut is in fact assigned, for the record)

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I find it hilarious how many people say what amounts to "I don't use Metro at all." And they don't see anything wrong with Metro being shipped with their system. If it's just useless bloody cruft, why is it there?

Why is multiple modes a bad thing? Microsoft essentially gave users the same old mode and a mode that lets them not totally destroy their computer by accident. I don't get the tech support cynicism of it. It's a huge step forward from a tech support perspective.

>Whatever happened to people being discerning and conscientious about what gets installed on their systems, instead of swallowing whatever useless tripe Microsoft wants to pump into them? When did useless bloat suddenly become okay?

When were people ever discerning and concientious about what got installed on their systems? That's part of the problem that Metro solves. It's less useful for power users, but it's tremendously useful for the average user, which is nowhere near to anyone on this forum. The average user doesn't care about the control panel; the average user cares about a secure browser, a secure email client, and being able to install programs without fear of the computer becoming disfunctional. Metro delivers that experience without sacrificing the desktop. By most metrics, desktop is the useless bloat and metro is the useful mode. For power users it's the opposite, but don't mistake them(yourself) for the majority of users.

So you're saying that whether you're a power-user or not, either way you're getting useless bloat. And this is somehow magically okay? Interesting...

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So you're saying that whether you're a power-user or not, either way you're getting useless bloat.

I was using 'useless bloat' as repetition of your terminology. I don't find it useless at all. I use it less than desktop, but I still find it more useful than a lot of the 'useless bloat' I have on my computer. On my home desktop I will probably use it more than VS or any game in the long run, but they already take up more space on the harddrive than the operating system; I don't consider any of them particularly useless, but if we're going to define 'useless bloat' as 'stuff I'd use infrequently' most of my computer is 'useless bloat'

And this is somehow magically okay?

Why should anyone be upset about getting more with their OS? "I ONLY BOUGHT A CAR! WHY DO YOU THINK GIVING ME HEATED SEATS FOR FREE IS OK?! And my manual comes on an iPad?! If I wanted an iPad wouldn't you think I'd just buy an iPad instead of a car?!" "I just wanted a pizza! Why on earth would I want free garlic fingers too?!" "Why would I want to play Blu-Rays/DVDs on my PS3/360? It's a game console not a video player!"

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Why should anyone be upset about getting more with their OS?

It's not about getting more with my OS, it's about getting more than one OS bolted together.

If my new MacBook had arrived with iOS bolted onto the front, I'd have been equally miffed. Instead, Apple took a bunch of awesome UI improvements from iOS, and merged them seamlessly into their desktop operating system...

"I just wanted a pizza! Why on earth would I want free garlic fingers too?!" "Why would I want to play Blu-Rays/DVDs on my PS3/360? It's a game console not a video player!"

A free copy of Microsoft Office is awesome added-value, in exactly the way that a preinstalled copy of McAffee isn't.

Not all features add value (or perhaps more politically correct: they don't add value for everyone).

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A free copy of Microsoft Office is awesome added-value, in exactly the way that a preinstalled copy of McAffee isn't.

Not all features add value (or perhaps more politically correct: they don't add value for everyone).

By 'getting more' I am not meaning just getting more than one thing. As I said before, Metro doesn't take away from the desktop experience; it arguably doesn't add to it. I don't see why people get so upset about something that doesn't hurt their experience being included in a product. It has, at worst, a neutral impact on user experience. The negative impression it gets for offerring worst-case neutral benefit seems totally disproportionate to me.

If my new MacBook had arrived with iOS bolted onto the front, I'd have been equally miffed. Instead, Apple took a bunch of awesome UI improvements from iOS, and merged them seamlessly into their desktop operating system...

iOS isn't as different from any desktop OS UI-wise. Standard sized square icons aligned on a grid is nothing exceptionally new. Icons look a little prettier and it has UI optimizations because the screens are <50% the size of a normal monitor and you need buttons the size of a finger not a cursor. You could make a strong case that the UI between iOS and MacOS (and even windows) is more similar than between Metro and WP8. Edited by way2lazy2care

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iOS isn't as different from any desktop OS UI-wise.

I sense that we have very different definitions of either the phrase "desktop", or the phrase "UI".

You don't consider fullscreen one-at-a-time apps to be a different paradigm than multiple user-placeable windows?

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iOS isn't as different from any desktop OS UI-wise.

I sense that we have very different definitions of either the phrase "desktop", or the phrase "UI".

You don't consider fullscreen one-at-a-time apps to be a different paradigm than multiple user-placeable windows?

I think it's because I generally run most of my apps in one of the snappable positions most of the time that I take it for granted. I'd consider that a legitimate complaint/difference, but I would consider a problem with a mode distinctly different from a problem with the nature of being multi-modal.

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DLNA seems to be downgraded in win 8! :o

It's so bad that I've kept win 7 installed just so I can use it instead. It's just horrible.

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I would consider a problem with a mode distinctly different from a problem with the nature of being multi-modal

So, this is my problem: Windows 8 is continuously and inconsistently multi-modal. You have a handful of apps that run in Metro, and a handful that run in Desktop. You can't ever see both on screen at once (unless you have multiple monitors), but have to toggle between them.

On my Mac I also have shiny-new fullscreen tablet-inspired apps. But on my Mac, I can choose whether to put them in fullscreen or not, and pretty much all applications support the new fullscreen mode.

Even worse, if you want to adapt your app to run in the shiny new fullscreen metaphor, you can't ship them without going through Microsoft's approval process. That's a paradigm that may have worked well for Apple in the mobile space, but they didn't really attempt to enforce that on the Desktop - many of my favourite apps aren't even adaptable to the guidelines in a meaningful way.

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Looks ok on Phone/Tablet. From mobile indie developer perspective i see it as opportunity.

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Looks ok on Phone/Tablet. From mobile indie developer perspective i see it as opportunity.

Ding, we have a winner. Because what's good for the tablet is fantabulous for the desktop, amirite?

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Looks ok on Phone/Tablet. From mobile indie developer perspective i see it as opportunity.

Ding, we have a winner. Because what's good for the tablet is fantabulous for the desktop, amirite?

This is an affirming a disjunct fallacy.

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I was perusing the reddit machine and noticed MS engineers who worked on Windows 8 are doing an AMA at 12:30 EST. Might be worth a drop in for those of us who may wonder why things are a certain way.

edit: Correction, it's more surface pro than windows 8 in general stuff.

Edited by way2lazy2care

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Looks ok on Phone/Tablet. From mobile indie developer perspective i see it as opportunity.

Ding, we have a winner. Because what's good for the tablet is fantabulous for the desktop, amirite?

I didn't use Winsows 8 on desktop :), still on XP :). I saw it on friends computer. Looks like it will be like Vista, junked very soon. I personally don't like change so i don't like Win 8 too.

But on phone/tablet it is useable. But thats another story.

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My concern about Windows 8 has little to do with windows 8 itself, its almost all about the precedent MS is setting for the future.  I am very very wary of a future computing environment where small time developers cannot simply create software and release it, without having to contend with some gatekeeper or another.

Now, windows 8 does not break that paradigm yet, but I don't think its hard to imagine that MS sees this as a halfway point between the old paradigm and a new one whereby MS controls what is and is not installed on your system.

And, to answer the obvious criticism, I am wary of Windows 8, not completely against it.  It's possible that the aforementioned fear is unjustified, and only time will tell for sure, but I think its safe to say that W8 is a step in the wrong direction if that's my primary concern.

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My concern about Windows 8 has little to do with windows 8 itself, its almost all about the precedent MS is setting for the future.  I am very very wary of a future computing environment where small time developers cannot simply create software and release it, without having to contend with some gatekeeper or another.

Now, windows 8 does not break that paradigm yet, but I don't think its hard to imagine that MS sees this as a halfway point between the old paradigm and a new one whereby MS controls what is and is not installed on your system.

And, to answer the obvious criticism, I am wary of Windows 8, not completely against it.  It's possible that the aforementioned fear is unjustified, and only time will tell for sure, but I think its safe to say that W8 is a step in the wrong direction if that's my primary concern.

I don't think that will ever happen. Microsoft has a strong history of backwards compatibility and makes a lot of money from corporate customers who have to be able to run their own software. The idea that there would not be a version available which allowed normal x86 software to run is silly. People simply wouldn't upgrade.

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I was perusing the reddit machine and noticed MS engineers who worked on Windows 8 are doing an AMA at 12:30 EST. Might be worth a drop in for those of us who may wonder why things are a certain way.

edit: Correction, it's more surface pro than windows 8 in general stuff.

What's an AMA? And is there a link?

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I was perusing the reddit machine and noticed MS engineers who worked on Windows 8 are doing an AMA at 12:30 EST. Might be worth a drop in for those of us who may wonder why things are a certain way.

edit: Correction, it's more surface pro than windows 8 in general stuff.

What's an AMA? And is there a link?

"Ask me Anything" and here you go.

It's over now, but you can look at the other answers. Most of them, unfortunately, are related to the surface pro hardware. :/

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I was perusing the reddit machine and noticed MS engineers who worked on Windows 8 are doing an AMA at 12:30 EST. Might be worth a drop in for those of us who may wonder why things are a certain way.

edit: Correction, it's more surface pro than windows 8 in general stuff.

What's an AMA? And is there a link?

AMA = "Ask me anything", and I guess this might be the right link. Ninja'd (by about 5 minutes )

"Why would I want to play Blu-Rays/DVDs on my PS3/360? It's a game console not a video player!"

Why would I should I be forced to pay extra money for a BluRay player in my PS3 ($125 vs a$15-$20 DVD drive), when BluRays weren't a common disc format (at the time of the PS3's release), just so Sony can win an unrelated format war that doesn't benefit me playing games? (the$125 estimated Bluray cost is from when the console was released - it's cheaper now)

The BluRay addition to the PS3 was not free. It increased the price of an already expensive console.
This is entirely different than the Windows 8 complaints though, however - unless someone is already arguing that the work towards adding the Metro UI could've benefited the desktop UI instead.

Edited by Servant of the Lord