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Cornstalks

Anonymous is now targeting the Westboro Baptist Church

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[quote name='JTippetts' timestamp='1355755084' post='5011714']
I just don't like slippery slopes, and once the government gets involved in anything, that's the very definition of a slippery slope.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone really does like them. But there are a lot of important issues that involve slippery slopes, and if people decide to let the matter slide into the "too hard basket," they become a very rapid downhill slope.
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A new law does not need to be created to deal with these people.
A good lawyer and by having the families suing them, the court is able to fit WBC as one that caused one/more of (threats, intimidation, bullying, harassment, libel, defamation, incitement, etc.)

The thing about freedom of speech is exactly what LennyLen cited. It gives you the right to express yourself as long as you don't commit a crime.

About Anonymous, just as Olof Hedman said, [url="http://www.wikihost.org/w/anonwiki/about"]they are not a centralized organization[/url] by definition. Edited by kuramayoko10
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There's no [i]new[/i] slippery slope for the government to abuse, because courts [i]already[/i] have laws to deal with the offences listed above. Anti-discrimination/anti-defamation/anti-harassment/anti-humiliation laws [i]are[/i] anti-hate-speech laws.

It seems maybe the term "hate speech" has different connotations in the US, than what I'm used to though...
e.g. this quote for wikipedia seems contradictory to me -- it says that hate speech is protected by the constitution, because it protects free speech, but then goes on to list exceptions to that protection (and it's the exceptions which make "hate speech" already illegal).
[quote]Laws prohibiting hate speech are unconstitutional in the United States ... speech is protected as a civil right (aside from usual exceptions to free speech, such as defamation...[/quote]

For example, if someone in Australia was to say "[i]I don't like <insert racial group>[/i]", then there's no law to weild against them, but if someone was to say "[i]<insert racial group> all perform <insert defaming act> so you should <insert discriminatory action> them[/i]" then that person would be guilty of defamation/vilification/inciting discrimination, which you'd colloquially call "hate speech".

As far as WBC is concerned, their guilt of "hate speech" would be something along the lines of inciting people to commit harassment.

Some states here take it a bit further, and you're simply not allowed to publicly promote the hatred of a group based on race/religion/sexuality. If the WBS were to visit those states and tell people that "[i]you should hate gays, because gays are gay[/i]", then that would also be a "hate speech" crime... However, if they said "[i]you should avoid befriending gays that are openly displaying their lifestyle, because public displays of homosexual affection make my God uncomfortable[/i]", then there would be no crime. It basically just requires bigots to at least be educated enough to choose their words wisely. Edited by Hodgman
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Obligatory "WBC is contemptable waste" comment just because it can't be said enough.

Anyhow, at the risk of spreading rumors, I'm fairly certain I've read/watched something before that explained how the WBC keeps one foot ahead of all potential legal snares: the large majority of their "family" and church are in legal professions. So in the spirit of furthering their church's success and infamy, they're always on the cutting edge of legal counsel.

What I don't get (well, I don't get any of it, they're f**king nutjobs with no ethical standards) is what the point of their actions really is. I want to say "free publicity", which is obviously working, but what would they do with it? I can't imagine that kind of attention brings new members to their church. It's not making them any money. And I refuse to believe that such an organized, practiced, and educated group would be after the real-life equivalent of a trolling session. At least, I refuse to believe that about any sane human. So maybe that's my problem.

Being the internet, are we sure the seed of this action (the idea the WBC was going to picket the school) is valid? There was a similar notion about the Dark Knight Rises premier theater shooting here in Denver, and crowds showed up to block the WBC, but they never made an appearance. Part of me wonders if someone's just ginning up attention by throwing the threat out there via twitter.
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[quote name='BCullis' timestamp='1355760761' post='5011753']
Part of me wonders if someone's just ginning up attention by throwing the threat out there via twitter.
[/quote]

As horrible as the Connecticut shootings were, I don't think even WBC would be stupid enough to walk into a riot turned beatdown turned death-by-active-act-of-stupidity-and-moral-indecency.
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[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1355768048' post='5011787']
As horrible as the Connecticut shootings were, I don't think even WBC would be stupid enough to walk into a riot turned beatdown turned death-by-active-act-of-stupidity-and-moral-indecency.
[/quote]

Clearly, you don't know WBC. They are EXACTLY that stupid! ;)
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[quote name='Alpha_ProgDes' timestamp='1355768048' post='5011787']
[quote name='BCullis' timestamp='1355760761' post='5011753']
Part of me wonders if someone's just ginning up attention by throwing the threat out there via twitter.
[/quote]

As horrible as the Connecticut shootings were, I don't think even WBC would be stupid enough to walk into a riot turned beatdown turned death-by-active-act-of-stupidity-and-moral-indecency.
[/quote]
If they hadn't previously done almost exactly this on multiple occassions, I might agree with you. They protested a memorial service at my university when some students died in a fire the weekend previous.
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According to KnightSec's twitter feed (link in the first post), WBC is already in Newtown.
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[quote name='MarkS' timestamp='1355768974' post='5011790']
Clearly, you don't know WBC. They are EXACTLY that stupid! ;)

[/quote][quote name='way2lazy2care' timestamp='1355768989' post='5011791']
If they hadn't previously done almost exactly this on multiple occassions, I might agree with you. They protested a memorial service at my university when some students died in a fire the weekend previous.
[/quote]

Calling all people of faith and, yes, even atheists. Let us all pray that Darwinism works out for the WBC. Amen.
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[quote name='LennyLen' timestamp='1355751340' post='5011676']
[quote name='JTippetts' timestamp='1355721745' post='5011546']
Free speech is free speech, and if we aren't willing to defend free speech, regardless of our personal beliefs regarding the speaker, then we all will eventually lose our right to free speech.
[/quote]Free speech is an extremely important principle, and there's a very good reason why it is included as a "universal human right." However, free speech should not give anyone the right to say whatever they want whenever they want.[/quote]That is why in a sane legislation, there is no unlimited free speech. Free speech is only free within limits. You're not allowed to say "bomb" at an airport or "fire" in a theater.

Of course, in reality, there is no such thing as free speech anyway. If you make use of your civil rights and your opinion is unopportune enough, you'll soon find out that your civil rights are worth a crap (and no, not only in China, in every country).

By the way, there is a bomb at the airport.

All in all, the many so-called freedoms that we have usually cause at least as much trouble as they are worth. For most people, "freedom" is not worth a lot, and they can hardly ever exercise it, but it always opens backdoors for criminals, religious fanatics, and other vicious and unscrupolous people. But that's true for most things, I guess...
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I can't wait for more people to realize that they have [i]all[/i] rights and that the ones listed by governments are just the ones people agreed were the most important / were on their minds at the time. Stuff like this'd run a whole lot smoother, and WBC wouldn't have lasted this long in the first place.
I wonder how many people in Anonymous have caught on to this...
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[quote name='BCullis' timestamp='1355760761' post='5011753']
Anyhow, at the risk of spreading rumors, I'm fairly certain I've read/watched something before that explained how the WBC keeps one foot ahead of all potential legal snares: the large majority of their "family" and church are in legal professions. So in the spirit of furthering their church's success and infamy, they're always on the cutting edge of legal counsel.

What I don't get (well, I don't get any of it, they're f**king nutjobs with no ethical standards) is what the point of their actions really is. I want to say "free publicity", which is obviously working, but what would they do with it? I can't imagine that kind of attention brings new members to their church. It's not making them any money. And I refuse to believe that such an organized, practiced, and educated group would be after the real-life equivalent of a trolling session. At least, I refuse to believe that about any sane human. So maybe that's my problem.
[/quote]

According to this, its basically a con:
[url="http://kanewj.com/wbc/"]http://kanewj.com/wbc/[/url]

I suppose legal muscle, combined with tax-free status and donations, you can play the system pretty good.

With that in mind, while all of this may be entertaining (and I have to say, it is rather entertaining), I doubt all this so-called hactivism will do any real good against them. Hopefully it doesn't result in more money going toward WBC from lawsuits or something.
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You are free do say and do as you please.

You are also free to suffer the consequences of your actions.
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[quote name='Luckless' timestamp='1355793319' post='5011873']
You are free do say and do as you please.

You are also free to suffer the consequences of your actions.
[/quote]

QFT!
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[quote name='Luckless' timestamp='1355793319' post='5011873']
You are free do say and do as you please.

You are also free to suffer the consequences of your actions.
[/quote]

But you are also free to suffer the consequences of the consequences of others actions. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]

i.e. despite their monumental dickery, you don't have carte blanche to slap the shit out of the WBC (no matter how much they deserve it) Edited by ChaosEngine
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Anonymous vigilantes are a bigger threat to society as a whole than some cult. Whether it's limiting our freedom of speech or supporting/allowing vigilantes, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came..."]it's a dangerous allowance.[/url]
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[quote name='ChaosEngine' timestamp='1355798097' post='5011889']
[quote name='Luckless' timestamp='1355793319' post='5011873']
You are free do say and do as you please.

You are also free to suffer the consequences of your actions.
[/quote]

But you are also free to suffer the consequences of the consequences of others actions. [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png[/img]

i.e. despite their monumental dickery, you don't have carte blanche to slap the shit out of the WBC (no matter how much they deserve it)
[/quote]

What exactly stops someone from trying? The law sure doesn't. It will punish them for doing so, but the reality is they're very much free to try.
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[QUOTE]I still remember having my mind blown as a kid when I realised the truth behind "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"[/QUOTE]
8^. I'm impressed that your child-mind was blown. My adult mind is hardly igniting on that phrase !

...

It's interesting that we don't have free speech in Australia, none at all. And yet I don't feel censored, and I would say that Australia is pretty high on the ladder of nations who permit 'freedom of expression and speech', in that I'm not going to be put in jail for speaking my mind. I have personally stood outside a federal court in our nations capital and criticized the Deputy Chief Justice of the Family Court, and when the police came, you know what they said ... 'you'll have to do that across the road, because if you stay here, we can arrest you for trespass on commonwealth ground, because you've been asked to leave'.

So I would say that 'Freedom of Speech' is more cultural than legal. Which is fascinating to me because it's such a big deal in America, and Americans 'defend' their freedom of speech. And they think that if they lost their 'freedom of speech' that suddenly they would all lose their right to speak their mind, which isn't true. There is a counter-side to the idea, that even without freedom of speech, you can still speak as long as what you are saying isn't damaging to another party. That kind of protection can be dealt with under law without any regards to freedom of speech.

Constitutions become crystallized under law, nation by nation and they are very much put on a pedestal. I think all nations are guilty of it. But I think the notion that you are free to speak can come with it's own problems in that such a sweeping phrase can raise all sorts of unforeseen issues. And it's amazing how people can abuse sweeping powers to enact their own agendas.
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[quote name='Gavin Williams' timestamp='1355881297' post='5012274']
So I would say that 'Freedom of Speech' is more cultural than legal. Which is fascinating to me because it's such a big deal in America, and Americans 'defend' their freedom of speech.
[/quote]

You have to look at our history and the political system that we came from to fully understand our defense of our freedoms. It was necessary at the time to codify them to prevent their loss at some point in time. We simply did not want our political system to devolve into that which we experienced under King George. The steps we took and the level in which it is ingrained in our system of laws and psyche ensure that.

Still, no level-headed citizen of the United States thinks that these freedoms are without limit. Edited by MarkS
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[quote name='MarkS' timestamp='1355891881' post='5012328']
It was necessary at the time to codify them to prevent their loss at some point in time.
[/quote]How's that working out? [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img] [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/cool.png[/img] Edited by Hodgman
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[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1355894327' post='5012336']
[quote name='MarkS' timestamp='1355891881' post='5012328']
It was necessary at the time to codify them to prevent their loss at some point in time.
[/quote]How's that working out? [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/tongue.png[/img] [img]http://public.gamedev.net//public/style_emoticons/default/cool.png[/img]
[/quote]

lol! Not as well as the framers would have liked...
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