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goober

Assemblers

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I don''t know if this is an appropriate term for assembler programmers, but there you go. I am looking for all you assemblers out there who are into making games. If you use TASM 5 for x86 asembler programming, I want to hear from you! If you use some other assembler, I''ll forgive you if you talk to me. btw I don''t want posts telling me I shouldn''t try to make games in assembler, I am sick to DEATH of those messages! "Of all the things I''ve lost, I miss my mind the most." Goober

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I wont tell you not to use assembler for making games
Just don''t use tasm

I''m working on a game using MSVC++ but right now about 70-80% of code is assembler.


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I''m intrested in learning assembly too
How do i start??
Which assembler should i use??
Is there any syntex differences between assembler??

anyone any recomentation??

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ggsam:
Start by finding the Art of Assembly tutorial, and then find the tutorial by adam hyde, and go to programmersheaven.com x86 assembler messageboard.
Use TASM, preferably v5, but v3 will do. Ignore people like kdrn who are just too simple to understand...
Yes. Usually minor differences, but annoying nevertheless.

"Of all the things I''ve lost, I miss my mind the most."
Goober

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Jx:
Diont bother. TASM is the ultimate and only. How the hell you live with yourself allowing Microsoft to survive one moment longer by using its dreadful asm product(aka MASM)? NASM, although I have nothing against it, isn''t exasctly a professional assembler, is it?

To ANYONE (like ggsam) who is just starting:
Dont fall into the trap that jx and kdrn have! Borland are THE software development experts, and the sooner everyone bows down and admits that their products(including TASM) are better than everyone elses(especially Microsoft *twists his mouth in distaste*) the better.

"Of all the things I''ve lost, I miss my mind the most."
Goober

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Anybody into writting machine code. I had an idea to start converting assembling language opcode to there machine code counter part just for fun. I think it would be a great learning experience, but maybe that's too far fetch. But it was just an idea of mine to try and see if I could decompile .exe files.
I not a cracker, hacker or whatever I just want to learn how machine code works.

bringing sound to the masses
http://www.unparallel.net

Edited by - Black Marq on October 17, 2001 1:13:05 PM

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quote:
Original post by Black Marq
Anybody into writting machine code. I had an idea to start converting assembling language opcode to there machine code counter part just for fun. I think it would be a great learning experience, but maybe that''s too far fetch. But it was just an idea of mine to try and see if I could decompile .exe files.
I not a cracker, hacker or whatever I just want to learn how machine code works.

bringing sound to the masses
http://www.unparallel.net

Edited by - Black Marq on October 17, 2001 1:13:05 PM


That''s not far fetched at all. It''s actually a fairly common project to do in assembly class in college. Also, anyone interested in assembler should get one of the Intel processor manuals. I basically learned ASM out of Intel''s 80186 processor manual. Best of all, if you write to Intel asking for one, they''ll probably send you one for free!

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I feel a bit silly getting my own thread off topic!!!

If ANY beginner assemblers(Microcrap lovers or any others. MASM/TASM code can be converted. ) are interested in joining with me to just do some simple game stuff (ie make the basic engines, use some vesa graphics, etc), give me a post.

I still reckon TASM is teh way to go...

"Of all the things I''ve lost, I miss my mind the most."
Goober

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uhm I actually used to prefer tasm to other assemblers,
but that was the old dos days...

I don''t see point in making asm games for dos these days, using VESA and stuff?
Why not use DirectX or whatever?

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quote:
Original post by kdrn
uhm I actually used to prefer tasm to other assemblers,
but that was the old dos days...


I am interested in making dos programs as well as win32 programs, both of which TASM 5 is very good at making. Why use a clumsy Microcrap product?
quote:

I don''t see point in making asm games for dos these days, using VESA and stuff?


Dont you? Thats a pity... for you.
quote:

Why not use DirectX or whatever?


Because I am learning. I plan to start with the basics, then move on to more advanced things when I know more. I wont consider using anything more pre-built than TASM until I understand how they work(that includes DX). I hope you understand, having been once young and stupid(back in the old dos days) like me.

So, since we are chatting...
Tell me about this game of yours.
Just out of interest, if it has so much assembler in it anyway, why bother using msvc++ at all(I have used it, and it is nothing special)? Is it just a matter of ease of writing, or is there some deeper reason?


"Of all the things I''ve lost, I miss my mind the most."
Goober

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by goober

Because I am learning. I plan to start with the basics...


The basics eh? Thats cool and all, but Assembly is NOT basic. Its as close to CPU/OS/BIOS as you can get. To start with the basics, there is actually a language called BASIC that is excellent for teaching logic flow and such things. Here's an example why a High-level language is better than Assembly; suppose you want to perform one action, say printing a string of characters to the screen. In assembly you are going to have to write several instructions to do this. Assuming you've initialized your DATA segmentinto DS, it would go something like this:

MOV DX, offset string1
MOV AH, 9
INT 21H

or in C++:

cout << string1

I would say that if you're not familiar with programming, you shouldn't start with assembly.







Edited by - deadlinegrunt on October 26, 2001 5:15:59 AM

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quote:
Original post by goober
I feel a bit silly getting my own thread off topic!!!

If ANY beginner assemblers(Microcrap lovers or any others. MASM/TASM code can be converted. ) are interested in joining with me to just do some simple game stuff (ie make the basic engines, use some vesa graphics, etc), give me a post.

I still reckon TASM is teh way to go...

"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."
Goober


Well I am a beginner in assembly, I have used MASM, NASM but I prefer the NASM. I have TASM because I was learning Assembly for win32 programming, but pretty much a very newbie in assembly.

As a learning purpose I would be interested in joining you. I will send you a mail later.

Well the above AP is me. ** Not any more **


Edited by - deadlinegrunt on October 26, 2001 5:17:43 AM

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quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
[quote]Original post by goober

Because I am learning. I plan to start with the basics...


The basics eh? Thats cool and all, but Assembly is NOT basic. Its as close to CPU/OS/BIOS as you can get.


You obviously dont know what the basics are. The basics(to me) means the actions taking place at the lowest/base (hence "basic")level. That means assembler(or machine code).

quote:

To start with the basics, there is actually a language called BASIC that is excellent for teaching logic flow and such things.


I have used it. It sux. Before I began to use assembler, I didn't understand what it was doing. Now that I have some understanding of how the machine runs(through using assembler ) I can do much more in BASIC than I could before.

quote:

Here's an example why a High-level language is better than Assembly; suppose you want to perform one action, say printing a string of characters to the screen. In assembly you are going to have to write several instructions to do this. Assuming you've initialized your DATA segmentinto DS, it would go something like this:

MOV DX, offset string1
MOV AH, 9
INT 21H


or in C++:

cout<



Sort of ties in with what I was saying above.
You are REALLY game trying to tell me that a hll is "better" just because it takes less instructions! Ever thought of plugging "speed", "efficiency" and "size" into your "better=less instructions" formula?
Besides, I have used c++ and it is not all that much less code than assembler, and it is often more obscure because of the way code gets squashed up with "<<"s and "->"s and "{}"s.

quote:

I would say that if you're not familiar with programming, you shouldn't start with assembly.


I AM familiar with programming. I have been using BASIC since I was 13, Delphi since I was 14 and c++ since I was 16(even though I havent concentrated on it)!
I started using assembler this year, and have learned more than with the other 3 languages combined!


The overall theme of this post is:
*Dont mistake "basic" for "less instructions"
*Dont mistake "learning" for "not familiar with programming"

And if I seem a bit harsh/blunt in this post, it is nothign personal, it is just the way I am.

"Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most."
Goober

Edited by - goober on October 20, 2001 4:50:41 AM

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Hi, i know basic,c and c++...and i was interested in beginning game programming,graphics programming.. and as goober says the cool way to begin is with assembler and low level programming like in the old days... I would like to get the skills that people had in those days and program an arcade like the ones from the eighties.....i dont mind that my games don´t run in windows(by now), i just want to know how things work.....

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oy, I came here looking for some assembly info, now I''m lost.

I know C++ pretty well and am interested in atleast looking into assemby, can you just like tell me what to look for, free stuff wise as I hove NO budget here. Any free compilers, tutorials, reference, preferably stuff that isnt microsoft dependant as it would more likely be free, maybe a Linux compiler, or is there one?

I''m lost.............help.........

Can someone just explain the idea in assembly as in what I need (what compilers are theyre free/pay for) and what I need to know (where can I learn for no $$).

Cuz my whole C++ education till now is free, then again I was lucky enough to get my hands on Visual Studio.......well.....97'' but atleast it''s something.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by Sinner_Zero
oy, I came here looking for some assembly info, now I''m lost.

I know C++ pretty well and am interested in atleast looking into assemby, can you just like tell me what to look for, free stuff wise as I hove NO budget here. Any free compilers, tutorials, reference, preferably stuff that isnt microsoft dependant as it would more likely be free, maybe a Linux compiler, or is there one?

I''m lost.............help.........

Can someone just explain the idea in assembly as in what I need (what compilers are theyre free/pay for) and what I need to know (where can I learn for no $$).

Cuz my whole C++ education till now is free, then again I was lucky enough to get my hands on Visual Studio.......well.....97'' but atleast it''s something.


Visual Studio already does assembly inline, so just look up the syntax for it in the help files.

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speaking of which I hate those damn help files.

one q while I''m on the topic (anyone else? heh) of help files, where the hell at the online MSDN library is the MFC reference? cuz I think the one with MSVC++ 5 might be outdated, or am I just crazy?

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Sinner_Zero: Get yourself over to google and search for "Art of Assembly" a text from UC Riverside - then start reading - keep doing google searches - there''s plenty of material on the www regarding win32 assembly - MASM,NASM & TASM. As for MSVC - the keyword is "__asm" - also check out Izcelion''s tuts and links and Elicz''s too.

Good luck

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quote:
Original post by Sinner_Zero
speaking of which I hate those damn help files.

That''s too bad. They''re actually quite good.

quote:
one q while I''m on the topic (anyone else? heh) of help files, where the hell at the online MSDN library is the MFC reference? cuz I think the one with MSVC++ 5 might be outdated, or am I just crazy?

Click Here.

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oy, its just that the whole MSDN library seems so loose to me, I mean I''m a beginner in everything but C++, I mean I only made a window open in MFC before and as for assembly, I just seens snippets of code.

I installed all of my help files with MVS 97'' and can''t find anything that they claimed was there. I mean all I can find of a complete C++ reference is all of the keywords....that don''t help much. I mean I still need to learn bitwise stuff which I have yet to see in any book that I''ve read and I know that I have only heard of vectors twice and seen code once, they seem very useful, but I can''t find anything in the help files about them, maybe at MSDN....... I guess I''ll try and try again I will.

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quote:
Original post by Sinner_Zero
I installed all of my help files with MVS 97'' and can''t find anything that they claimed was there.

There are four facilities in the MSDN Library (I''m talking about the CD): Contents, Index, Search and Favorites. Contents lists all the articles by category; Index is a keyword index, like you would find at the end of a book; Search scours all the articles for the keywords you specify; and Favorites is a list of articles you have marked as your favorites.

The library is literally strewn with MFC references. In fact, it emphasizes MFC for most Windows programming topics (you have to dig or know exactly where to look to find plain Win32 references).

And now, a rant (no offense):
If you get a new tool, RTFM! Read the instructions, read the documentation, read the quickstart card (MSVC still comes with those things, doesn''t it?) It''ll teach you a lot about how to use the tool and it''s associated complements (such as the MSDN Library). Read anything like "Introduction to ..." If more people did, we wouldn''t have so many of the same newbie questions on these forums.

Just read!

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well you see if I had any manuals trust me I would read them, when I say stumbled onto visual studio I mean it, just 4 CD''s, hell........ no MSDN library =(

now that was confusion for a newbie to everything. Now I''m just a newbie to most things and I''m still confused.

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