Symphonic,

Don''t worry about "disappointing" me or anything. I myself am in a similar situation. On permanent staff is myself (designer/management) and my chief programmer. I''ve contracted out artwork and pay by the project for that. So far this works relatively well, but it still is slow progress!

I was just curious to see what kind of other experiences we have on this board. Good luck and don''t give up!

Charles Galyon

I didn't say that collaboration wouldn't work, but that writing for video games is going to be inherently different than writing for any other medium. The designer and the writer would have to work closely from the very beginning and the division between the labor would have to be necessarily strict to enforce some protocol of judgement that the two would have to agree on. As an example, if Designer is admittedly poor in grammar, he would have to defer to Writer on issues involving grammar, whereas on issues involving the overall theme, mood and objective of the game, Writer(unless he was telepathic or something) would need to defer to Designer on those issues. This is an oversimplified example. The divisions between resposibility would be relative depending on the Designer and the Writer, and depend on their relative strengths and weaknesses.

On the other hand, if the Designer outsources the story outright, either because he is too lazy or inept to take an active role in the storytelling, he relinquishes any control or authority he has over what is written and relegates himself to a lesser role in the game development process.

The conflict you present, Lifeblood, is one I understand is typical between Writers and Editors(in the case you're describing, the Design team would fill this role). I would say that Editors generally tend to err on the side of simplicity and clarity, unless there is a very compelling reason to do otherwise(Does anyone remember Cyan from FFVI?). *I* understood what you were trying to say, but the target audience for the game, being potentially larger than the target audience for a novel(not in every case though), might get lost in over-flowery prose and overly-complex plot twists. In this case, the decision to simplify the story would defer to the Designer. That doesn't make the story drivel(well, unless he massacred the story by eliminating key plot elements because he's a blind idiot, that's just wrong), it makes the story appealing to a wider audience, and thus, more marketable. One of the things I always liked about Star Trek: The Next Generation, is that it never bogged itself down in over-exposition or tekkie garbage to the point where the drama itself suffered, and that made it appeal to not only to the Sci-Fi afficionados and Trekkies, but also to the casual viewer who only tuned in once every other week or so(a thing that Rick Berman's manhandling of Gene Roddenberry's work seems to destroy, IMHO). Some writers can sometimes get so engrossed by the elegance of their own prose that they lose sight of the ultimate purpose the work, which is to tell the story to the reader in a meaningful and rememberable way This is an issue that affects writers of any medium.

This is all in my humble opinion and relating to my personal experience, of course. I don't proclaim to be an expert writer or game designer.

Paradigm Shift 2000

"I am Locutus of Borg. Resistance is Futile." -- Locutus of Borg


Edited by - Paradigm Shift 2000 on October 20, 2001 8:45:25 PM

Paradigm, again I am forced to disagree with you on a subtle point. Aren''t you just thrilled.

Writing for a game is -not- inherently different than writing for any other medium. And I would go so far as to say that the storytelling in a game does not have to be that different from any other medium either. In fact, ideally what it should do (at least in my opinion), is take what literature and film do best and bring them together in some kind of dialectic. And, just because the writing in the game is grammatically correct (which would already be an accomplishment in itself) does not necessarily make the story compelling or successful in evoking some kind of emotional response out of the player (the purpose of a story).

When I refer to the importance of using a professional or at least competent writer I''m not talking about bringing someone on board who can merely spell check and clean up grammar and punctuation (although again, this would be an accomplishment worthy of note). There is a lot more to writing and storytelling than these simple building blocks. It''s because people don''t see this that today''s games are not blessed with more powerful storylines. Which is why on the topics of theme, character, plot, etc., a writer should be an invaluable resource to the team and should work in symbiosis with the designer (assuming these two talents cannot be manifested in one individual).

Also, you misrepresent the role of an editor. They are not there to simplify but clarify. And the audience for the average game is probably not even as big as that for the average novel. It might surprise some people (as it surprised me) to know that as big as the game''s industry has become revenue wise, it is still far from matching that of the retail book and publishing industry. But that''s a minor point.

And finally, good writers are like any good craftsperson; they would never allow their ego to get in the way of their art.

R.

I said my example was overly simplified. If the mechanics of writing for the game industry were the same as writing for the novel industry, you would see more freelance authors submitting scripts to publishers and having the designer build a game around the story. That would make the author the creator of the game, as opposed to the designer. Would that be necessarily good?Probably not, for several reasons I''ve already noted. What I meant was that if the creation of the game was going to be a joint effort between the Designer and the Writer, they are going to have to defer on points that the other is responsible for. Not just grammar and spell-checking, but plot flow, characterization, theme, setting, as well as any other element you can think of that would fall under the category of Game Story. The Writer isn''t necessarily the Expert with respect to the storytelling in a Game. You can''t just take a great book like "The Hobbit" and make a game from it that''s going to be great. Just because the Story is great doesn''t make it a good candidate for a Game. I''ve played several games based on "The Hobbit" and every one was garbage, which isn''t J.R.R. Tolkien''s fault, because I liked the novel, and his "Lord of the Rings" trilogy, but a fault that the Designer of the game needs to rectify building a game around a story that is already written. The Game Story of a Game needs to be custom tailored to the Game Design, and that''s partially true when writing scripts for movies(the book is always better than the movie, IMHO), and completely untrue for novels, which are true prose by design. That''s what I meant by the writing for a game is going to be different than writing for any other medium. It doesn''t *have* to be, but if you want a story that''s going to work *with* a game, rather than against it, it should. The Designer shouldn''t defer to the Writer in every case involving the Story, otherwise Story will override Gameplay. Remember, the key word in Interactive Fiction is Interactive, not Fiction.

I see many games with powerful storylines, that evoke a meaningful emotional response from myself. What makes a "good" story is completely relative. Okay, think "Super Metroid". There was a damn good story unfolding in that game. Not a C.J. Cherryh or Stephen Donaldson story to be sure, but I was able to follow it and feel with it. I can give many examples of games that have good Storylines: All of the Legend of Zelda series, all of the Metroid series(including the GB version which is a vital tie-in to Super Metroid), Every Final Fantasy game(although a little cliche in many cases), Xenogears, The Guardian Legend had a good story if the player bothered to look for it, Legacy of Kain and Soul Reaver(two stories being built back-to-back around a common theme). There are some bombs to be sure, but that''s true of the novel industry as well, has anyone here read Clive Barker''s "Imajica"? That book really bombed IMHO, but I''m sure others thought it was a wonder piece of prose full of hidden meaning and thought. I think Clive Barker needs to see a psychotherapist about mother issues. To make a blanket statement that most games don''t have powerful storylines turns out untrue if examined closely.

I thought I said that the Editor''s role is both to simplify and to clarify. I''m sorry if I didn''t make that point clear. Making a story overly complex can kill it, I did it once, and my manuscript was rejected. It was only a short story, so complexity needed to be sacrificed for simplicity, so the Editor told me. I''ve never re-written the story because I can''t see how it can be simplified to the point of being a good candidate for a short story.

As for the target audience of both industries? Pokemon probably sold just as many copies as Harry Potter. The potential for a large target audience is there and with the high cost of creating games these days, publishers are looking to take advantage of that by making games available to a wider audience. Writing a game that is only going to appeal to trekkies isn''t going to justify the cost of making that game, whereas niche markets in the book publishing industry can make a reasonable profit from a decent Sci-Fi novel because the overhead is so much less.

Umm... sorry if I''m off-topic. The point I''m trying to make is that the Designer is going to know better than the Writer what a good candidate of story is going to be for a Game.

Paradigm Shift 2000

Well, again I respectfully disagree with many of your points, but I doubt it serves any purpose to enumerate them here. You have defended your point well, but since, as you pointed out, what makes a game or story good is relative and subjective, we are differing on points of opinion and not of fact.

As I see this discussion unfolding, I realize that the definition of what makes a story or game good is as elusive as that of what makes something literature or art.

I again will champion a model where the designer and writer work in conjunction, as a kind of left-brain/right-brain collaboration. Unfortunately for my argument, I have a feeling your way of looking at the relationship will prevail in most development teams.

The last point you make, that a designer will know better than a writer what story will make a good game, is unequivocably false in my opinion. The designer will be better equipped to know how to bring a story to life in a game, but the writer will know how to craft a story that is interesting and emotive for the player. But perhaps I am biased by looking at the validity of story in only certain game genres, not covered by any of the games you listed.

Cheers,

R.

Well, it does seem that our opinions on what makes a good story and what is required to make one differ That''s the beauty of discussion. We can agree to disagree I''m going to create a discussion of game story to a different thread because I think it''s important to elaborate on what people''s opinions are about what makes a good story Sorry for dragging on off-topic.

Paradigm Shift 2000