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hpdvs2

Thoughts on Splitting Up the RTS...

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I recently posted asking for ideas for a new RTS.  Here is a key concept that I'm considering right now, and I'd love to hear feed back on it.

 

The RTS will be split into two key areas.

 

1) City Building.

 - Safe, in your country, as a single settlement. Weak in technology.

 - Over time, increase the city size, built up your military base, improve your technologies.

 - Develop squads to send in to the battle front.

 

2) Battle Front.

 - An ongoing everlasting war.  

 - Your squad is dropped off in the heat of battle on some random planet.  AI will attempt to place you in an area that you have a balanced chance of survival.  

 - You don't create buildings here.  but you do get far better control of your troops, and they get better tactical AI's than Blizzard RTS's

 - Scenery can be altered.  (explosions can leave dents.  Ditches can be dug, Rock and dirt can be used to create Cover areas. etc...)

 

What ideas do you have around this?  What would be really useful in this environment?  What changes would you make to what I suggested?

 

Thanks for any feed back.

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I like the idea of scenery alteration. It makes the game more interesting since players can pull off more interesting strategies. For example, maybe players can build a small bridge to get around a place where they may be heavy enemy defenses involving catapults and so on. 

 

Maybe each player can be allowed to have a general which gives the surrounding troops a morale boost depending on what weapon they are using. Sword generals provide a defensive boost to nearby troops and so on. The idea works like real life. When the general commands the army personally in battle, they will feel motivated to battle. However, there is a consequence, if he dies, the morale will decrease instead temporary. Generals are only available when the barrack have reached a certain level, which to normal players, may be only be built at the mid game.

 

For the everlasting war, supply chains would be a good idea. Troops need food to survive, if they don't get it, their fighting ability will rapidly decrease. Food can be sent via wagons from the city to the military forts. Wagons are very slow and take a while to reach and yet fragile, thus they need to be protected. Enemies can deploy ambush forces along the supply route to prevent the supply from reaching. Players have to send forces to prevent such a thing from happening. Even though these battles may be small, they are pivotal to the war.

 

Also, experience system. As the troops participate in more wars and still survive, they can get promoted upon killing a certain amount like the Red Alert 3 system. They are stronger and perform better in battle.

 

I was just thinking. This system could also apply for 2v2. One player manages the economy and the other controls the military.

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[quote name='DtCarrot' timestamp='1357270025' post='5017343']
This system could also apply for 2v2. One player manages the economy and the other controls the military.
[/quote]

 

That's an interesting idea.  Then players can focus on what they enjoy and stand out for.  But of course they can also take on the whole thing.  

 

[quote name='DtCarrot' timestamp='1357270025' post='5017343']
For the everlasting war, supply chains would be a good idea. Troops need food to survive,
[/quote]

 

I like this idea.  This could also be for ammunition.  For instance once they get low on arms, they go into a defensive strategy, and not offensive.  Players could pay attention and use opportunities like this to put extra effort into striking then.  Certainly has potential.

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This sounds kind of similar to a browser based MMORTS like travian and the million others that are out there but maybe in a real time/non browser based form?

 

If the city building side isn't influenced by combat how do you win? What happens when you win the battle that your squad gets sent to? What is the "end game" of it all? Is this all going to be multiplayer or singleplayer against AI? Is your city going to be persistent like an MMO, something that will be built up over extended periods of time, or will the game function like a traditional RTS with new matches beginning and ending in each play session?

 

Not trying to criticize your idea, it sounds cool, but it would help to answer those questions I think so we can get a better idea of what the concept is.

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To me, a "single settlement" supporting a "squad" suggests a very specific setting and premise: skirmishes between little city-states (presumably isolated, self-sufficient colonies) which can field a militia of a handful of people with limited-budget equipment.

Your game can follow specific named characters from cradle to grave, involving the player in their military training and their military career or in civilian accomplishments like inventing weapons or earning money for the town.

You could also bridge the city management and the tactical combat sub-games with the obviously implied space travel element: explicitly building and buying ships is an extra challenge, and piloting them around offers many adventure opportunities beyond reaching the battlefield: exploration, boarding attempts, outright spaceship combat, stopping in interesting places along the way in general, diplomacy and special missions, etc.

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This sounds kind of similar to a browser based MMORTS like travian and the million others that are out there but maybe in a real time/non browser based form?

 

Being browser-based doesn't necessarily mean that the game is turn-based, it can also be played real-time using websockets (example : Browser Quest by mozilla). 

 

I agree with Shake92 about answering the question of victory/defeat conditions. I think something like the concept of the world map in Total War series could do the trick : you have cities (or one city in our case) that is safe from harm and where you can build and train troops, but there is a battlefield where troops can fight. When one army defeats the other on the battlefield, it can move to the city and siege it.

 

A victory on the battlefield doesn't necessarily mean winning the game. One player must successfully siege the other player's city in order to win. So instead of 2 modes of play, I suggest having 3 : 

  • City Building
  • Battle Front
  • City Siege : this mode will eventually lead to winning/losing the game.

I think one of the biggest pleasures in RTS games is protecting your weakest points (city, supply convoys like DtCarrot suggested, ... etc) and trying to hit your opponent's. If cities are completely isolated from battle, players' weakest points will not be exposed (at least not completely). But that's just me, I like combat more than management in RTS games, so for me this point is very important.

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If the city building side isn't influenced by combat how do you win? What happens when you win the battle that your squad gets sent to? What is the "end game" of it all? Is this all going to be multiplayer or singleplayer against AI? Is your city going to be persistent like an MMO, something that will be built up over extended periods of time, or will the game function like a traditional RTS with new matches beginning and ending in each play session?
 
Not trying to criticize your idea, it sounds cool, but it would help to answer those questions I think so we can get a better idea of what the concept is.

 

 

Good points.  I left this area vague, so people could respond in anyway they felt compelled to.  I didn't want to limit the creative flow, just reign it in a little more than my previous more generic RTS post. 

 

However, to give an answer, I am planning on this being an MMO.  Cities cooperate to help each other out, but the cities are persistant.  A person may have the same city for a month or more.  The "Everlasting Battlefront" is basically a large open battle field where there could be dozens of other players from both (possible more than 2) sides.  The idea being that you are claiming planets.  Or large scores of players are battling together to take a planet in their governments name.  Its supposed to take the smaller battle feel of starcraft, and expand it, so you can see that these never ending online battles are actually leading to something.

 

In regards to the battle front action itself, I'm figuring to use squads that go in, or groups of squads, and they must survive for X amount of time, or deal X amount of damage, possible even have specific objectives.  If they survive the objectives, they return home, with more experience, and reward  pay from the government, allowing for even better enhancements.  There will be plenty of AI squads running around, so you'll never know if your facing AI or human.

 

but keep in mind, that I'm still very flexible.  I left this information out, because I'm willing to change my mind if someone posts something in a different direction.  For instance, single player comments, or head to head.  I want to hear what people have to say, and if I like it better than my current options I'll go with it.

Edited by hpdvs2

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[quote name='LorenzoGatti' timestamp='1357293454' post='5017407']
explicitly building and buying ships is an extra challenge, and piloting them around offers many adventure opportunities beyond reaching the battlefield: exploration, boarding attempts, outright spaceship combat, stopping in interesting places along the way in general, diplomacy and special missions, etc.
[/quote]

 

Oh I like this....   I was already considering the idea of new planets being discovered and fought over.  This idea would suggest that players would be the ones to find these planets.  Of course it ads a lot of extra work for a game where this is not really the focus.  I'd have to consider this a lot more, and its value to complexity.

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There will be plenty of AI squads running around, so you'll never know if your facing AI or human.

 

I like this idea - you could do something that monitors the level of players in a given area, and if it's under a certain threshold, have the server generate AI troops to join the fight.  That way there's always a decent sized battle going, and players have no trouble with low-population timezones.  When the numbers of players do get back on the server, you can just have the AI troops start falling back/losing ground, and then finally flying out when the players arrive.

In addition to this, if you're planning about making this an MMO, what happens to a person's territory when they log off?  Do their soldiers automatically defend it or do the units fly back home and the territory left open?  Is there any value to taking territory that will just be lost later if you don't have friends sitting on it 24/7?

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[quote name='Shake92' timestamp='1357277963' post='5017372']
This sounds kind of similar to a browser based MMORTS like travian and the million others that are out there but maybe in a real time/non browser based form?
[/quote]

 

Very much a Real Time Strategy.  Potentially browser based.  (Unity 3D, so it could be browser or client)

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[quote name='LorenzoGatti' timestamp='1357293454' post='5017407']
To me, a "single settlement" supporting a "squad" suggests a very specific setting and premise: skirmishes between little city-states (presumably isolated, self-sufficient colonies) which can field a militia of a handful of people with limited-budget equipment.
[/quote]

 

I remember playing some other City Building games, where you could send troops (no actual battle control, more just time delay and reports)  and was really annoyed, when I had spent a week building up my little city, with an army of 300, when someone who had paid a few bucks and been part of a Guild, attacked and decimated my forces with his of 7000 strong.  Needless to say, I stopped playing that game, because the powerful dominate, and there are no balance checks.  I wanted to leave the cities them selves safe, while only risking the armed forces.  I.e. You can only lose those things you send out to battle, and it will be more rare if at all, that you lose things in your city.

 

However, I'm not completely apposed to this either.  But I need to figure out how to do it well.  Perhaps your first city is safely protected on your home world.  Perhaps once you get past a certain point in your development, you are offered the ability to start a colony on a planet not fully owned yet  (Still having battle plague it.)  There is a risk that your city could be attacked.

 

I do however like the idea of insurance, where the cities value is insured by the government, and if you lose it, the government sets you up somewhere else with a lot of money and immediate availability of the same technology level.  This would account for natural disasters such as Asteroids, Battle damage or 'oops' a server crashed, I.e. a planet blew up/got sucked into a black hole.

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My question would be, why do you want to split it up? What makes the experience different and better suited for the game you have in mind?

I didn't see anything about the setting, the theme of the game.  LorenzoGatti touched upon this:

 

[quote name='LorenzoGatti' timestamp='1357293454' post='5017407']

To me, a "single settlement" supporting a "squad" suggests a very specific setting and premise: skirmishes between little city-states (presumably isolated, self-sufficient colonies) which can field a militia of a handful of people with limited-budget equipment

[/quote]

 

If you had to describe your game in one to three sentences, what would it be?

In my opinion, this basically defines in what direction you want to go with your game and if specific mechanics are useful for that or not. (Let's be honest, if we could, we would implement a million page long list of mechanics, most of which the gamer will probably never notice, but we sadly don't have the time.)

 

It also helped me to think about, why the player should play my game. Competition? Creative creations (spore)? Adventure and exploration...

Then it is easier to discuss specific mechanics and if it is the right direction

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[quote name='Shake92' timestamp='1357277963' post='5017372']
If the city building side isn't influenced by combat how do you win?
[/quote]

 

to respond more directly to this question, there is no "winning" in city building, there is only surviving/thriving.  Similar to playing run scape or Farmville

 

Also, there is no single victory for the war.  However, winning occurs in two ways. 

1) your squad(s) survive smaller battles, and gain experience.  You get rewards, including better military techs from the government.

2) winning a planet.  The everlasting battles occur across many planets.  and planets will sometimes be won, and then owned by one side alone.  If a planet is won, your contributions will be tallied with everyone else, and perhaps status on the planet will be influenced by it.  (Extra resources, Guild ownership, etc...)

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[quote name='Zed2100' timestamp='1357296948' post='5017411']
A victory on the battlefield doesn't necessarily mean winning the game. One player must successfully siege the other player's city in order to win. So instead of 2 modes of play, I suggest having 3 :

City Building
Battle Front
City Siege : this mode will eventually lead to winning/losing the game.
[/quote]

 

In a recent response to LorenzoGatti, I started liking the idea of adding colonies on planets still in the war.  These ones can be lost, and Adding City Seige to the mix would be needed for that.  (Starting to get a consensus for that :)

 

In this idea, the homeworld city (your starting point) will always be safe.  But your colonies to have better advantages in battle front, and stake on better resources (otherwise unused planet)  Of course that also puts them at risk. 

 

Adding this feature may make things easier than I had intended.  I was planning on having a different overall city designer/manager than battle front, but I can see that I could use the same basic logic engine, but just offer different interaction menus.  naturally changing again when under siege to provide different needs tactics/management.

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[quote name='Shake92' timestamp='1357277963' post='5017372']
If the city building side isn't influenced by combat how do you win? What happens when you win the battle that your squad gets sent to? What is the "end game" of it all? Is this all going to be multiplayer or singleplayer against AI? Is your city going to be persistent like an MMO, something that will be built up over extended periods of time, or will the game function like a traditional RTS with new matches beginning and ending in each play session?
[/quote]

 

This will not be traditional, in the sense of PVP attacks over limited amounts of land, and a small time frame. 

 - I intend this to be an everlasting battle that will have lasting effects.  a single active battle field may have a dozen human players and 2 dozen AI's  (#'s depending on performance) An active battle may continue for long periods of time, like days or weeks, constantly recieving new troops.  Troops that stay in for X amount of time and/or complete objectives, receive rewards and can return home, to help train other troops. 

 - You have minor win's, in that your Sqauds win, and over time, gain more military respect and get better gear/manufactoring/training abilities from the government.

 

Unlike starcraft, when the "map" is won, you keep your resources.

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[quote name='sonicarrow' timestamp='1357307191' post='5017428']
In addition to this, if you're planning about making this an MMO, what happens to a person's territory when they log off? Do their soldiers automatically defend it or do the units fly back home and the territory left open? Is there any value to taking territory that will just be lost later if you don't have friends sitting on it 24/7?
[/quote]

 

(bothersome needing to rewrite, acidentalyl clicked a link.:)  )

 

I plan on the everlasting battle having certain requirements, such as time limit to guard an area or take out X number of enemy troops, or recover X Items. etc...  This means that even if the player isin't watching, that their troops are still there.  If the player doesn't engage  (either trusts their troop, id distracted by other more important issues or loses connection to the internet) then the units will fall under an AI control.  They will try to complete the mission objectives, and get back home.

 

because there could be a dozen or more player's/human controlled squads, it doesn't make sense to pause the battle field for connection issues, or suddenly have a large groups of soldiers/tanks dissapear only to reapear 14 hours later when the player returns, possibly after no more battle exists in that area.

 

DtCarrot suggested something that goes along with this well:

[quote name='DtCarrot' timestamp='1357270025' post='5017343']
Maybe each player can be allowed to have a general which gives the surrounding troops a morale boost depending on what weapon they are using. Sword generals provide a defensive boost to nearby troops and so on. The idea works like real life.
[/quote]

 

The idea being that you could train Officers as well, and these officers would have good AI control.  If they are taken out your troops revert back to what ever their basic level of training and experience suggest, and don't act as a team (often) but still try to complete the tasks.  If you pay enough to train/hire your officers, they may do a better job than you can.  :D

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[quote name='Bluefirehawk' timestamp='1357312693' post='5017441']
If you had to describe your game in one to three sentences, what would it be?
[/quote]

 

Build up your cities, technologies and military forces to become a force to be reckoned with.

Send your forces to fight along side others to try to take control of new planets for your government.

Control your squads in a battle with dozens of other players to complete your mission objectives and get out.

 

 

[quote name='Bluefirehawk' timestamp='1357312693' post='5017441']
why the player should play my game. Competition? Creative creations (spore)? Adventure and exploration...
[/quote]

 

Competition, Ownership, Name.

 

Competition is in smaller segments.  One player will not win a war.  Many are required to take over control of a planet.

 

Unlike Starcraft, where you play a map, against some other random player online, and when its done its done.  This game once you complete your objectives on the map (or die) the map (or planet) is still under siege. Eventually one side WILL WIN.  and based on the points you received in combat on that planet, you will receive credits, territory or a colony on the new planet and better technologies according to your points.  But there are many planets (continuous server growth).   Of course, each planet also acts a bit like a leader board.  You get your name on the planet.  The winner, may even get the planet named after them.

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Maybe you should allow buildings on the battlefield too. These would only provide support, defence and units, ans they would need resources and tech from your stable city (to produce or simply act as a buffer for ammo, units, and to build the actual building itself)

Maybe there would also be resources flowing from the battlefield to your city too. Captured enemy resources and tech, resources mined from the planets etc.

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[quote name='Waterlimon' timestamp='1357326863' post='5017476']
Maybe you should allow buildings on the battlefield too. These would only provide support, defence and units, ans they would need resources and tech from your stable city (to produce or simply act as a buffer for ammo, units, and to build the actual building itself)
[/quote]

 

Indeed.  I'm weighing out the idea of crossing the city building with the tactical combat.  I primarily wanted a way to keep the initial city safe, so players don't have to worry about it.  But then having colonies on warring planets that could be lost, but give benefits to battle.  Of course I may not go with this, as I think it would cost to much time in development, but maybe a V2 of the game.

 

[quote name='Waterlimon' timestamp='1357326863' post='5017476']
Maybe there would also be resources flowing from the battlefield to your city too. Captured enemy resources and tech, resources mined from the planets etc.
[/quote]

 

This I really like.  I was planning that going to the battles would return rewards for the city/player, but captured tech is a great idea.  perhaps your can't even create certain things, but you just stole 3 tanks, and can use them.  If they are lost they are lost.  But you can also study them, to increase your abilities with your vehicles/weapons, etc...  That seems like a great way to increase technology as well.  I like the idea of having different mentalities.  So far, I was planning that you get everything from the government's military source, for the means of technology, essentially proving your abilities and earning rights to build better tech.  But providing additional ways, like things you can only get from stealing things from opponents.  For instance, taking over a base and still having a tank manufacturing building of the enemies.  Perhaps you can't build new buildings like it, but you can keep it producing tanks.

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The few MMO strategy game design attempts I'm familiar with were all fundamentally broken and terrible. It's bad if the winning "strategy" is to spend every waking hour playing 1000 smurf accounts. It's also bad if the winning "strategy" is to spend every waking hour growing an alliance of as many people as possible. Mechanics can't allow one group to take control of the game and hold it forever.

I think a MMO strategy game would have the best shot at being interesting and balanced if it was split into shards of a manageable number of people, if the shards were reset once in a while (e.g. at the victory of one faction), and if alliances were fixed for the duration of the life of the shard to prevent the degenerate largest-alliance "strategy". There would still be the problem of smurfing, including smurf accounts stacked on the same side, and smurf accounts spying on the opponents, that has to be dealt with somehow. Edited by Stroppy Katamari

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[quote name='Stroppy Katamari' timestamp='1357479159' post='5018176']
I think a MMO strategy game would have the best shot at being interesting and balanced if it was split into shards of a manageable number of people, if the shards were reset once in a while (e.g. at the victory of one faction), and if alliances were fixed for the duration of the life of the shard to prevent the degenerate largest-alliance "strategy".
[/quote]

 

I have to agree here.  To manage, I'm planning on letting players compete in live battles for control of planets.  some large number of players controlling regions of a planet.  The idea is that when you control a region, you are establishing an atmospheric defense system, which will only allow ships through of your side.  But it only defends a certain portion of the sky.  hence the regions.  Once all regions are under control of your side, enemy ships can no longer get through to the surface, and the planet becomes 'safe'  This leaves it more manageable.  

 

Next, other players, who have attained a strong enough skill level/status in the game to produce a colony defense, can only produce squads that await orders in open battle fields.  The players controlling the regions of the unconquered planets would have power to identify missions to take in battle space around their planet.  (certain amounts of credit for this)  Like Defend this area for 5 minutes, or take out an approaching tank armada.  AI would have to determine the threat level, and spend a certain amount of special credits to send in an appropriately matched force for the challenge.  So already many squads enter the battle field from assorted players on different planets, for temporary amounts of time.  

 

I'm also considering the idea that AI controlled systems will be recognized by the same side.  and that players can take over a fully AI run region of a planet.  that way a battle  and strategy can keep playing.  The AI's would also decide  on how to spend mission credits to defend the region if the player isn't.  like 1 new thing every minute, or something like that, and if you haven't picked any missions in 5 minutes, it will then spend all but 1 of the credits on assigning random missions to help the planet.

 

However, I am starting to get to much into specifics on my own side.  I will again point out that none of this is in stone yet, and I am still open to entirely different ideas and approaches.

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i wouldnt realy call this idea "splitting up" but more trying to combine two genres, aka the normal RTS on one side, and the citybuilding on the other.

RTS:log in, play ~30 minutes whenever you want to, complete match

city-building:play for ages, often having to be online at times/intervals to increase your performance without actually happening a lot.
(i would actually call city-builders turn-based because of waiting-intervals, or something else (persistent ? ) at least not real-time )

right now, with your idea, you would be attracting two different kinds of players who would both be mainly interested in one aspect of the game, and who would be wondering why they always have to deal with the other aspect of the game.

regarding your experience with a bad city-builder:
pay-to-win exist, dont make them if you do not enjoy them, there are more ways of getting your money.
a safe city is good, most games already won't let you lose your last city(or planet or whatever), expand a bit on this concept instead, have goals you need to reach to have multiple safe cities for example.
combat:when sending out an army, give them orders, start with something like a defensive and offensive stance, add units with specific strengts(for example a unit that is good in covering a retreat from chasers.) and add a better combat-report, one that showed what happened and why it happened that way

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online games with lame economic systems are an issue. city-builder style games like those from Impressions, the Stronghold games, Settlers and so forth are far more deserving of the genre title city builder.

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[quote name='powerneg' timestamp='1357531433' post='5018430']
i wouldnt realy call this idea "splitting up" but more trying to combine two genres, aka the normal RTS on one side, and the citybuilding on the other.

RTS:log in, play ~30 minutes whenever you want to, complete match

city-building:play for ages, often having to be online at times/intervals to increase your performance without actually happening a lot.
[/quote]

 

thats a good point.  I am targeting two areas, but I believe there is significant value here.  For instance, in most strategy games, like starcraft, you are still doing city building, it just takes no time at all to build a nuclear reactor, or a tank factory.  about the same amount of time as it takes to build a tank.  This game would provide a way for players to enhance/upgrade buildings, in a protected environment, to fuel battle after battle, not just condense all their city building features into one battle, and when they move on to the next start over with nothing again.

 

[quote name='powerneg' timestamp='1357531433' post='5018430']
right now, with your idea, you would be attracting two different kinds of players who would both be mainly interested in one aspect of the game, and who would be wondering why they always have to deal with the other aspect of the game.
[/quote]

 

The game does allow for player to focus on only one area and never have to touch the other, but they will get more out of hangling both parts of it.  Their choice.

 

[quote name='powerneg' timestamp='1357531433' post='5018430']
pay-to-win exist, dont make them if you do not enjoy them, there are more ways of getting your money.
[/quote]

 

I know pay-to-win exists, but what I want is a game with better balance, for instance, a player of 10000 military units can't just go attack a player with 100.  No honor for instance, unless the weaker player starts it for some dumb reason.  But I don't mind a pay-to-player taking on equal size masses.  You can't pay for experience, which the other side could certainly have.  Some games make better balances of this, but some don't.  I'm mostly saying I want it to be better balanced.

 

[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1357544423' post='5018494']
online games with lame economic systems are an issue. city-builder style games like those from Impressions, the Stronghold games, Settlers and so forth are far more deserving of the genre title city builder.
[/quote]

 

I certainly agree here, and would lump Master of Magic in with your list.  excellent setup of small forces, city building, etc...

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I expect you've played the UFO-series of games - which combines the "Geoscape" - which is a kind of resource-management game with some strategic elements, with a turn-based tactical "Missions" game. The nicest thing about it is that when the UFOs attack your home base, you end up playing a "map" which is actually your own base how you laid it out in the RM part of the game, so they overlap quite well.

 

Really inspired piece of design. I think we need more games using these kinds of ideas, so +1 from me!

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