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3Ddreamer

Language Interoperability Preferences of the Professionals

47 posts in this topic

Most of my situations involve C# being the primary language, C++ for calculations or intense crap (and in the future driver related work) and F# for maths



The project decides the language, but im happy using all three, most stuff is done in C# though

 

 

Interesting post you made.  Is F# math for higher or lower level coding?  How would you use F# with C#?  Do they work well together?  It's obviously common for more intricate things to be done in C++, right?  Do you handle much image rendering in your applications?

 

 

Lua has good performance out of the box, but the LuaJIT version has great performance. Unfortunately, most closed platforms don't allow JIT'ed code on them... You can still use LuaJIT as it gives better performance than plain Lua (even when not JITing!) but you have to disable it's JIT feature that gives great performance.

 

 

By JIT, you must mean Just In Time compilation, correct? I couldn't find anything detailed in the internet about LuaJIT.  Some coders love Lua, but I don't remember reading about anybody using LuaJIT in a game so I must not have been at the right place to find it.  I wonder why we don't see many popular games which have been made with Lua and C - can't think of any at the moment.

Edited by 3Ddreamer
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Thanks, swiftcoder. I didn't use Google and maybe I didn't query it correctly.  So... how [I]swift[/I] are you and what language would you use in scripting for fast development, even with another lower level one, if you had your cake and could eat it, too?

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[quote name='Hodgman' timestamp='1358689362' post='5023486']
most closed platforms don't allow JIT'ed code on them
[/quote]

 

What exactly does this mean: Closed Platforms?  Are you saying Windows? laugh.png  

 

If something is so great, then why would any platform manufacturer not allow JIT?  Is it hardware issues and not OS ones which kill it there?

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For years Apple forbade interpreted/JIT'd languages from iOS, though I believe they have since relaxed that restriction. I'm sure other platforms have similar rules.

 

As I said earlier in the thread, Python is my jam, and I'll use C/C++ with it where I have to (though PyPy is making this an increasingly rare need).

 

That said, I'm in the process of writing what I expect to be a much more suitable language for my tastes - only time will tell...

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Yeah, I have heard a little about PyPy going deeper. Some are just like you sticking with it unless they just have to use say C/++ or other. How are you going to implement your own language - interpreter? I have no idea how to make a language.
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[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1358720115' post='5023650']
How are you going to implement your own language - interpreter?[/quote]

I was initially looking at targeting the CLR (the virtual machine/runtime underlying .Net and Mono).

 

However, I have decided that the advantages of native compilation (using LLVM for native code generation) outweigh the benefits that the CLR provides.

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[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1358715899' post='5023620']
By JIT, you must mean Just In Time compilation, correct? I couldn't find anything detailed in the internet about LuaJIT.  Some coders love Lua, but I don't remember reading about anybody using LuaJIT in a game so I must not have been at the right place to find it.  I wonder why we don't see many popular games which have been made with Lua and C - can't think of any at the moment.[/quote]Lua is extremely popular in games wink.png Every game that I've worked on, which wasn't using UnrealScript, was using Lua.

 

LuaJIT is a drop-in replacement for Lua -- it's the same API, but the author has re-written the whole library in assembly code to keep it as lean as possible. He's then also added an extra option you can enable, which enables Just In Time compilation of the Lua bytecode to native assembly for even more speed.

[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1358718533' post='5023638']
What exactly does this mean: Closed Platforms?  Are you saying Windows?   
If something is so great, then why would any platform manufacturer not allow JIT?[/quote]Closed platforms are ones where you need permission from some "gate keeper" in order to publish a game on them -- e.g. Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Apple.

Usually, these platforms require all of your code to be compiled into the version that you submit for testing, so JIT compilation is banned. This is mainly a security issue -- if someone manages to modify your game's data files, they can edit your scripts. Normally, this wouldn't be a problem for the platform-gate-keeper, however, if these scripts can generate and run native assembly code, then perhaps that will let people hack into the OS, etc, etc...

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Okay, that's great to know, but what about Windows based games? Who are the "gatekeepers" for Windows?
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[quote name='3Ddreamer' timestamp='1358815398' post='5024106']
Who are the "gatekeepers" for Windows?[/quote]

There aren't any gatekeepers per se, because you are always free to sell your software by direct download (or, in the past, on disk), thus bypassing any potential need for approval.

 

That said, as app stores become more popular, they start to fulfil that role. You might argue that Steam and the Windows Store both take on the role of gatekeepers.

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Yeah, Valve are the gatekeeper of Steam, but they boast that they don't require you to go through a strict certification process like other platforms ;)

 

Windows/Linux/Mac are great because everyone can make and release software for them without needing to go through a publisher.

 

The Windows8 app store on the other hand (for buying Win8 "metro" apps, like the iPhone app store), or the old "Games for Windows Live" label... they do have a certification process, where your app has a whole bunch of requirements it has to pass. I'm not familiar with them though, so I'm not sure what they are.

Edited by Hodgman
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Back on the original topic - I don't really think about what languages I'd like to use. When I start a new project I think about which engine or libraries are going to get the game working with the least amount of work, and that usually decides the language for me. Picking a language without considering the needs of the project is a bit like picking the musical instrument before picking the music - fine if you just want to play but not usually the best route to practical results.

 

In the last month I've worked with C++ for one project, C# for one project. Python for two others, and Javascript for another. You just get used to switching.

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Well, basically the topic is what two languages would you like or prefer to use together.

 

 

I wonder how many up and coming programmers changed a preference because of frustrations in getting published or contracted for development.  Can the realities of the industry cause such a drastic change in sentiment in a few?  Perhaps some decide to try some other language after a lot of frustration and maybe quit their goal of a commercially published game.

 

On the other hand, obviously a tenacious person could get very skilled at 2 or 3 languages and that would put them over the hurdles.  Liking it must be important, is my point.

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I think that if you want to be successful in the modern programming world there's no room to get precious over your choice of language. The end product is most important - the language or languages are just a tool. I have plenty of opinions about which languages I like and dislike but it's not that important really, especially when we're talking about preferences "of the professionals" because what the professionals use is whatever the job requires. What's what being a professional is about!

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I think that if you want to be successful in the modern programming world there's no room to get precious over your choice of language. The end product is most important - the language or languages are just a tool. I have plenty of opinions about which languages I like and dislike but it's not that important really, especially when we're talking about preferences "of the professionals" because what the professionals use is whatever the job requires. What's what being a professional is about!

This.


I hate virtually every language I use on a daily basis, in some way or another. If I wanted to get a job done, though, I wouldn't use any of the languages I love.
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[quote name='ApochPiQ' timestamp='1358903871' post='5024548']
I hate virtually every language I use on a daily basis, in some way or another. If I wanted to get a job done, though, I wouldn't use any of the languages I love.[/quote]

QFT.

 

Use any language long enough, and you will discover it has serious flaws. But those flaws are usually symptomatic of concessions that are required to solve real-world problems.

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Alrighty then... Let's go there!  tongue.png

 

 

What languages do you [u]hate[/u] to use but have basically been forced unto them by will of thy master?  blink.png ...had to use them.

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Alrighty then... Let's go there!  tongue.png

Let's not.

What languages do you hate to use but have basically been forced unto them by will of thy master?  blink.png ...had to use them.

Do you really not see the problem with this? That list includes pretty much every language I have ever used - even a language I use by choice everyday (like, say: python) has many serious flaws...

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