Sorry for bringing back the original topic, I'm not going to fire it up again, just add something I think wasn't said here yet. And many interesting information about music prices and cost evaluation was said already. Thanks. I was reading it yesterday and felt like I need to add something here.

I like to place another variable into an equation to make this case even more complex. Besides constant costs like, for example: warming up the gears, music software prices, computer hardware, bringing people together etc. etc. which makes the costs of music production very individual (so unique that it even cannot be said if the music price is to high or not, which you all actually pointed in the posts before. Besides the all of those costs, many of the freelancers evaluate their clients and the projects which they present to them with the base of project attractiveness itself, client reputation and more. This is especially important when comes to work online with people you never see face to face. It makes talking about prices for things like music (but not only the music) as unique as impossible.

Actually, even high profile music composers for quadriple A titles are willingly to do something for fun sometimes. And many of us (not AAAA ;>) have some dream projects that could support for a far lower rates than 'usual ones'.

In that moment I would like to support nsmadsen in his decision about not discussing the price, which one person gave to another, at the one day, when the sun was rising. No worries riuthamus, it is always good to gather as much information about the topic you go into as possible, but involving someone personally would not give any useful value in the end.

It was interesting reading, having to see how both sides perceive the value on someones else work, anyway. Have nice day :)

Some guy quoted me 150$ per Min... which seemed outrageously crazy

150/min is pretty darn low for professionally produced music. In fact, I'd call it "outrageously crazy" low for a professionally produced game.

Agreed.

Perhaps it may interest the threadstarter to know that in some situations (usually in cases involving real musicians), composers are paid:

Number of pages (4 bars a page) x (factor based on density of instrumentation etc.

It may be useful for composers to have their rates presented in such a manner so that game composers know exactly what they are paying for.

Note that this does not include other skills that should be paid for, such as the orchestral mockup/sequencing, mixing and mastering, as well as score and part preparation should the music need to be recorded. The recording time (if applicable) should also be taken into account if the composer conducts his own music. This way, there'll be absolutely no doubt as to what is being paid for. Some guidelines may be taken from union rate sheets and appropriate studies of the prevailing market rates.

I think this approach might take the guesswork out of what is really being paid for, and also forces composers to really put a dollar value on every aspect of their work, so that they can realize if they are overcharging or if they are being taken advantage of. That being said, flexibility and human negotiation should also be a part of every business transaction.

I have nearly 0 experience as a professional composer, but it seems to me that this would be a logical step to take, since "how much should I pay?" and "how much should i charge?" are very common questions on forums.

You'll probably find that people are making far below the wage required to sustain their business if people only pay 150 for exclusive rights for 1 minute of fully produced music.

It's all been said but I'll throw in my hat and offer my personal experience on the matter.

I think one of the main problems is that a lot of people who give quotes are hobbyist musicians or aren't relying on music for livelihood. So when they start to get paid, they don't need to really get paid all that much if anything. Everyone kind of thinks "well, i've got a friend who does some music, he can probably do it" and so audio's value becomes grossly undervalued. You're paying for the prestige and fans of a composer to come to your game, what can be a huge gulf in creativity and uniqueness between two composers, for their experience and reliability in doing the job, for their time and the masses of work they have to do, and for the wonderful, incredible, beautiful contribution they can make to your project.

Hobbyists may also tell you that a five minute track will take them half an hour to do. Don't let that skew your idea of the workload of an audio guy. I can only approximate but from my experience a 3 minute track may take around 2 or 3 days (minimum) to conceptualise, sequence, record, mix, master. Composers would be capable of making a 3 minute track in half an hour but I would hope it isn't something they'd be proud to release under their name. This estimation is also assuming that you'll get ideas quickly and you won't have to revise the track too much. Be wary of the quality that comes from a quick job.

I completely agree that rates, at least for me, are dependant on so many things - my workload at the moment, how much fun the project looks, how promising the title may be, how long it may take to complete, etc. etc. etc. But, as someone who is on the cusp of turning freelance (well, striving to) who is also charging something similar to the price in question, I will tell you, I work all day and night and for that price I'm not getting the bills paid. Audio freelancers who do an outstanding job need to charge that kind of price at an absolute minimum to not be homeless. It's just a shame that the general conception of price is based on the quotes of hobbyists etc. etc.

The idea of chip music vs. epic orchestral being the two sides of the price spectrum is a little naive I think. Same with composers getting paid per instruments/staves, as you have to define the price of the work by some quantifier and it seems per minute is the most common and in my experience the least problematic.

There's no real objective worth of any track, so guess-work isn't really needed. I suppose it's about people trying to find a good working relationship and being open about what their budget is and what they're after.

I can tell you that art does not work the same. If i am using a freelance artist the most I would expect to pay is 25 - 50 an hour.

You do realise that means you are paying more for art than you would have for music?

A decent composer is lucky to produce a minute of written+recorded+mastered music per day. That means that at $125/minute of finished music, he's only charging you $15/hour - well less than the $50/hour you are willing to pay for art.

Composers would be capable of making a 3 minute track in half an hour but I would hope it isn't something they'd be proud to release under their name. This estimation is also assuming that you'll get ideas quickly and you won't have to revise the track too much. Be wary of the quality that comes from a quick job.

Be careful with this kind of thinking. I've had times when cues just came to me and I was literally done in a matter of hours. Both the client and I were very happy with the results and it was well received by the public. The more you do this job, the better and the more proficient you get at it. There's a story (or maybe it's a myth) about Picasso:

Picasso was sitting in a Paris café when an admirer went up to him and asked if he would do a quick sketch for him on a paper napkin.Picasso politely agreed, did a quick sketch and handed back the napkin — but not before asking for a rather large amount of money. The admirer was horrified: “How can you ask so much? It only took you a minute to draw this!” “No”, Picasso replied, “It took me 40 years”

And then there's a story I read about Miles Davis, where an audience member complained that she didn't understand what he was doing. Miles griped that he had been working on this approach to music for 20+ years and this woman wanted to understand it in 20 minutes. This is the huge grey area about our industry - about our jobs. These are creative jobs and some can work better or faster than others. It doesn't necessarily mean they're careless or the quality is lacking.

My point - some of the best artists I've worked with are so talented and knowledgible that they can work at high quality, very quickly. In fact, in many circles that's what folks consider being professional. Having said ALL of this - I would tend to agree that most folks cannot create something of AAA quality in half an hour but ya never know. I've worked with some people who were supernaturally talented it seemed and incredibly fast. :)

Oh yes, indeed. Speed comes with experience and there may be times when you just splurge something and it all comes together! But generally speaking it's good to get an idea of how long (if you can ever pin down quantifiable data about the creative processes) on average it might take to produce one average-lengthed track. I only warn because I've seen people in past boast of how quickly they'll write a track to a dev and produce some stuff where it's clear corners have been cut and the brain has not been whirring!

But I generalise, of course. It's often the case for me that I've been playing around with a certain musical idea on the piano every now and then for a couple of weeks before I sit at the DAW and bring it to life. It's a funny ole business where you're making a lot of progress when you're walking in the park not thinking about much at all!

Composers would be capable of making a 3 minute track in half an hour

Be very careful working with someone who says they can do this. Not because of the quality of the track, but for potential legal reasons.

There is a category of consumer music making programs that use pre-existing 'stems' of high quality music as building blocks for larger pieces. You can certainly churn out very good sounding tracks very quickly! But the problem is that if you read the fine print of these programs, you discover that the musical pieces that are created are often "limited for personal use" or some such. Specifically it is not legal to ship them with your game.

That's also a good reason to try to use either professionals, or at least serious, well-credentialed hobbyists. They are far less likely to inadvertently give you something that you don't actually have the rights to ship...

Brian

GameSoundCon