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Women vs Tropes in Video Games

82 posts in this topic

I liked the video. It was pretty interesting and down to earth. I like how its edited, those short commercials/images/gameplay bits are set up to speak for themselves instead of her going over them and explaining them, which keeps a clear message.

 

It was a wise decision not to allow comments nor ratings on the video, the message would be drowned in the mass of the not-so respectful internet dwellers.

 

How many videos she is expected to release?

 

Yeah I thought it was pretty good too.

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And we return to my original point.
Why am I the least-bothered by this video?

 

You're the least bothered because you're the only one that is looking at this from the perspective of "feminist issues are a real thing that need to be talked about." Duh. Obviously. That's not an opinion, that's an objective fact that only the most bigoted would disagree with (which, yeah, a lot of them are on the internet). Honestly its shameful that in a modern, first world society we still can't completely grasp the fact "Oh hey, we're all the same species and need each other to survive... we should treat everyone by the same standard."

 

The thing a lot of people are upset about isn't that she's talking about feminist issues. The thing people are upset that this was the first taste of what she planned to do with $16k after 6 months. Btw, I literally looked up "roles of women in video games" or something similar on YouTube and found a much more interesting (albeit a bit more amateur) video where someone was talking about this very subject. I don't care that she's a woman, or that she has an idea I generally agree with: I'm angry that someone was basically able to make it rain with a shallow business pitch (I remember seeing it once before it was over) and this is all they have to show for it.

 

If she wants to make a documentary, fine, make a documentary. But if all the backers got was like... a newsroom shot while she spouted sparse facts overlayed by fancy graphics, then yeah she could have probably done that as a hobby on the side. As someone else mentioned: of course it's great to make money off something you love, but the standards go up when you start asking for money.

 

Also to the person who said it was a good idea to disable comments and ratings because it would "get in the way of the message"... do you realize how hypocritical that statement is? This is a video series intended to INCREASE DISCUSSION ABOUT WOMEN IN VIDEO GAMES, so it's a good idea to discourage any kind of response or free thought on the very video itself? Can I get an English major in here to determine whether or not that's irony... because I think it is.

Edited by AniMerrill
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Your claim in the context of this thread was that the genders need to be different, not individuals; that in order for society not to fall apart, people with different genitalia need to have different personalities, specifically as a consequence of what genitalia they have. THAT is the claim I was disputing; THAT is the claim that has yet to be justified.

No, my claim is not actually related to genders at all, at least not directly. That’s just guilt by association.
I basically want to say that differences are good (and indeed allow species to evolve, so they are necessary), and the larger differences make me personally more interested in a person (this part is just me, not the main point).

As it turns out, the best way to make people different is to pump different chemicals—“hormones” if you will—through their bodies.

In other words, it is just related to certain chemicals rather than gender, but gender is what causes those chemicals (in most people).


With men being from Mars and women from Venus, these chemicals certainly are effective.
Men cannot understand what women are thinking nor vice-versa. This kind of mystery is something I cherish, and indeed we all do on some level.
This is the foundation of “it’s necessary for us to be different”.
Gender plays a passive role, but it causes those chemicals and physical differences as well that create the largest gap between people, and frankly life would be bland without it.


L. Spiro
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Your claim in the context of this thread was that the genders need to be different, not individuals; that in order for society not to fall apart, people with different genitalia need to have different personalities, specifically as a consequence of what genitalia they have. THAT is the claim I was disputing; THAT is the claim that has yet to be justified.

No, my claim is not actually related to genders at all, at least not directly. That’s just guilt by association.
I basically want to say that differences are good (and indeed allow species to evolve, so they are necessary), and the larger differences make me personally more interested in a person (this part is just me, not the main point).

As it turns out, the best way to make people different is to pump different chemicals—“hormones” if you will—through their bodies.

In other words, it is just related to certain chemicals rather than gender, but gender is what causes those chemicals (in most people).


With men being from Mars and women from Venus, these chemicals certainly are effective.
Men cannot understand what women are thinking nor vice-versa. This kind of mystery is something I cherish, and indeed we all do on some level.
This is the foundation of “it’s necessary for us to be different”.
Gender plays a passive role, but it causes those chemicals and physical differences as well that create the largest gap between people, and frankly life would be bland without it.


L. Spiro

You may be a brilliant programmer but, your information on biology is sorely out of date. And similarly for psychology.

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You may be a brilliant programmer but, your information on biology is sorely out of date. And similarly for psychology.

I am always open to education if you are willing to point out where I have gone astray.

But this might be a good time to mention that the only thing that has gone into my stomach in the last 3 days is 50%-vol (not proof) Vodka, and I should probably just remove myself from the conversation. Even drunk I can see I am saying a few idiotic things.

I don’t think I will be replying again until I deem myself fit for social contact (which may never happen, because if I am to be 100% honest my objective right now is to die), but do feel free to “update” me.


L. Spiro
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You may be a brilliant programmer but, your information on biology is sorely out of date. And similarly for psychology.

I am always open to education if you are willing to point out where I have gone astray.

But this might be a good time to mention that the only thing that has gone into my stomach in the last 3 days is 50%-vol (not proof) Vodka, and I should probably just remove myself from the conversation. Even drunk I can see I am saying a few idiotic things.

I don’t think I will be replying again until I deem myself fit for social contact (which may never happen, because if I am to be 100% honest my objective right now is to die), but do feel free to “update” me.


L. Spiro

 
LOL. A real damsel in distress![spoiler]Unfortunately, this is the internetz. And I don't know you. So while I think you are be sarcastic and wily, you may be actually trying to kill yourself. Let's strive for the former shall we![/spoiler]

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And rent on a serviceable apartment is like 250$.

Where do you live? In American cities big enough to have some software companies to work for, I haven't seen apartments that cheap, basically, ever.
 
I worked in a smaller city in the 1990's and at that time and place about the cheapest you could go was $400 a month -- and even that is certainly not possible now, even there.


previously in the thread:


I live in Missouri, and you can get 250$-350$ housing in KC, STL where I live, and Columbia where I went to Mizzou for a bit. Possibly even less depending on the details.

note that cost of living is much lower in the midwest, but at least in my case (also living in the midwest, but in Oklahoma), there are no real software jobs short of going somewhere like Texas or similar... (don't currently have a job, more just doing stuff on my own...).

but, like anything, there are good points and there are drawbacks.
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Women, want to get revenge on the men?
Disappear from the Earth.  That would drive the men absolutely batshit crazy.  A sign of females’ value to men despite any perceived objectification.

Also, do you really need to repeat this tired old cliche?  Actually, back in this thread (http://www.gamedev.net/topic/639144-sony-and-the-ps4-im-impressed-your-thoughts/page-3) you were rightly criticizing the stereotyping of men as "sex-hungry dolts".  So why the change?

 

 

Why turn this at the extreme case ? For what I know most fathers and mothers say that the best thing that happens in their live is the coming of their little babies. So yes the live is more fun when there are men and women. 

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I just want to bring some other thing (I didnt saw the vid or read all the posts)

Today game market isnt all about AAA anymore, casual games (facebook and mobile) share an enormous amount in the market (if not more then 50%, I didnt find any numbers with a quick search, but lets face AAA games are competing with indies already). Casual games arent male focused games in any way, Id say my mom is playing way more games than me due facebook and browser games (tetris, farming, that bejeweled puzzle, etc).

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Casual games arent male focused games in any way

Yeah, this is a good point. From my understanding casual game companies specifically target women. I learned this first hand actually from the rejection feedback I got upon submitting a puzzle game to a casual game company in Seattle (not PopCap). Basically they said something like 90% of their users were women and that they didn't think my game which was an abstract puzzle game would appeal to them.

Edited by jwezorek
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But this might be a good time to mention that the only thing that has gone into my stomach in the last 3 days is 50%-vol (not proof) Vodka, and I should probably just remove myself from the conversation. Even drunk I can see I am saying a few idiotic things.

 

I can respect this. I too have not had food for days and instead... had alcohol. Ah the life of a starving artist.

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Why turn this at the extreme case ? For what I know most fathers and mothers say that the best thing that happens in their live is the coming of their little babies. So yes the live is more fun when there are men and women. 

 

This is certainly true.  However, I don't think it's what L. Spiro meant to imply.

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And we return to my original point.
Why am I the least-bothered by this video?

 

You're the least bothered because you're the only one that is looking at this from the perspective of "feminist issues are a real thing that need to be talked about." Duh. Obviously. That's not an opinion, that's an objective fact that only the most bigoted would disagree with (which, yeah, a lot of them are on the internet). Honestly its shameful that in a modern, first world society we still can't completely grasp the fact "Oh hey, we're all the same species and need each other to survive... we should treat everyone by the same standard."

 

The thing a lot of people are upset about isn't that she's talking about feminist issues. The thing people are upset that this was the first taste of what she planned to do with $16k after 6 months. Btw, I literally looked up "roles of women in video games" or something similar on YouTube and found a much more interesting (albeit a bit more amateur) video where someone was talking about this very subject. I don't care that she's a woman, or that she has an idea I generally agree with: I'm angry that someone was basically able to make it rain with a shallow business pitch (I remember seeing it once before it was over) and this is all they have to show for it.

 

If she wants to make a documentary, fine, make a documentary. But if all the backers got was like... a newsroom shot while she spouted sparse facts overlayed by fancy graphics, then yeah she could have probably done that as a hobby on the side. As someone else mentioned: of course it's great to make money off something you love, but the standards go up when you start asking for money.

 

Also to the person who said it was a good idea to disable comments and ratings because it would "get in the way of the message"... do you realize how hypocritical that statement is? This is a video series intended to INCREASE DISCUSSION ABOUT WOMEN IN VIDEO GAMES, so it's a good idea to discourage any kind of response or free thought on the very video itself? Can I get an English major in here to determine whether or not that's irony... because I think it is.

Actually anything directly related to Sarkeesian would just be bogged down by the scum of the internet. There would have been nothing useful in the comments on the video. She was right to block that, although I don't see why she blocked ratings. As if anyone cares about ratings anyways, so even if it was 10 to 1 bad it doesn't matter.

 

There was some amateur pokemon fan girl I came across accidentally while watching cracked videos that was super better at this than Anita with her degrees is. And surprisingly her super high pitched ideal japanese girl voice didn't get in the way of her point. It did hurt my ears a little though.

 

Someone on another forum claimed Anita needed all that money because licensing Nintendo content, but most youtube videos don't have that and use nintendo stuff anyways.

 

Sadly no one on Gamedev has bothered to answer my question about whether Anita's video falls under fair use or not.

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Someone on another forum claimed Anita needed all that money because licensing Nintendo content, but most youtube videos don't have that and use nintendo stuff anyways.
 
Sadly no one on Gamedev has bothered to answer my question about whether Anita's video falls under fair use or not.

 

From everything I know about it, which I'm not a lawyer so anybody else's opinion could override mine easily, but I think it would fall under fair use. I'm pretty sure that's why people like AVGN, Nostalgia Critic, Ray William Johnson, Let's Players, etc etc etc can have their content up on Youtube and the internet without getting sued. However, Fair Use isn't a inherent right with well defined parameters: what is fair use for one IP may not be fair use for another. Sometimes it can just come down to the quality of the lawyers if a suit is made. Which in turn can often result in a suit never being made in the first place, as in the case of Let's Plays that content can basically be free advertising for the company.

 

So, I think technically its fair use but I could see her using the money to cover her ass if, say, she ever wanted to sell DVDs of it. Or otherwise directly monetize it.

 

Actually anything directly related to Sarkeesian would just be bogged down by the scum of the internet. There would have been nothing useful in the comments on the video. She was right to block that, although I don't see why she blocked ratings. As if anyone cares about ratings anyways, so even if it was 10 to 1 bad it doesn't matter.

 

C'est la vie, that is the internet. Removing comments and ratings completely discourages any constructive discussion in addition to the shit, so this may be a personal opinion... but I don't think restricting the comments of trolls is worth silencing or disengaging those who care about the subject. Free speech is ugly, but it also exposes truth. Not to mention, in the case of this forum right here, there are a lot of good points being made about her delivery/use of random backer money which as a content creator she could have constructively used- even if some of us are raging a bit. However, since this commentary has to be made outside of the scope she can see- or will likely refuse to look at if linked to it -there's no way this criticism can be used constructively, however valid or invalid.

 

There was some amateur pokemon fan girl I came across accidentally while watching cracked videos that was super better at this than Anita with her degrees is. And surprisingly her super high pitched ideal japanese girl voice didn't get in the way of her point. It did hurt my ears a little though.

 

Care to link? Always looking for new people to follow on the YouTubes.

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Someone on another forum claimed Anita needed all that money because licensing Nintendo content, but most youtube videos don't have that and use nintendo stuff anyways.
 
Sadly no one on Gamedev has bothered to answer my question about whether Anita's video falls under fair use or not.

 

From everything I know about it, which I'm not a lawyer so anybody else's opinion could override mine easily, but I think it would fall under fair use. I'm pretty sure that's why people like AVGN, Nostalgia Critic, Ray William Johnson, Let's Players, etc etc etc can have their content up on Youtube and the internet without getting sued. However, Fair Use isn't a inherent right with well defined parameters: what is fair use for one IP may not be fair use for another. Sometimes it can just come down to the quality of the lawyers if a suit is made. Which in turn can often result in a suit never being made in the first place, as in the case of Let's Plays that content can basically be free advertising for the company.

 

So, I think technically its fair use but I could see her using the money to cover her ass if, say, she ever wanted to sell DVDs of it. Or otherwise directly monetize it.

 

 

>Actually anything directly related to Sarkeesian would just be bogged down by the scum of the internet. There would have been nothing useful in the comments on the video. She was right to block that, although I don't see why she blocked ratings. As if anyone cares about ratings anyways, so even if it was 10 to 1 bad it doesn't matter.

 

C'est la vie, that is the internet. Removing comments and ratings completely discourages any constructive discussion in addition to the shit, so this may be a personal opinion... but I don't think restricting the comments of trolls is worth silencing or disengaging those who care about the subject. Free speech is ugly, but it also exposes truth. Not to mention, in the case of this forum right here, there are a lot of good points being made about her delivery/use of random backer money which as a content creator she could have constructively used- even if some of us are raging a bit. However, since this commentary has to be made outside of the scope she can see- or will likely refuse to look at if linked to it -there's no way this criticism can be used constructively, however valid or invalid.

 

I've seen discussion on a dozen forums and about half are worth reading. And since forums are much more easily moderated and tend to have dedicated moderators its much better to talk there. Also if one peruses the proper forums one can be pretty sure of quality of content.

There was some amateur pokemon fan girl I came across accidentally while watching cracked videos that was super better at this than Anita with her degrees is. And surprisingly her super high pitched ideal japanese girl voice didn't get in the way of her point. It did hurt my ears a little though.

 

Care to link? Always looking for new people to follow on the YouTubes.

 

I haven't got links really. It didn't occur to me.

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There have been many rumors about how the money was spent. There even was a photo shopped ticket of many expensive shoes saying "This is what anita bought with the kickstarter money".

 

I wouldn't believe that Nintendo licencing fees rumor either.

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There have been many rumors about how the money was spent. There even was a photo shopped ticket of many expensive shoes saying "This is what anita bought with the kickstarter money".

 

I wouldn't believe that Nintendo licencing fees rumor either.

The person who told me is not a rumor monger of some sort though. It wasn't a games forum. They claim they had a good way of knowing, personal experience or something. I dunno.

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Wow.

I seriously can't believe that on a forum that's supposedly populated by intelligent developers I'm seeing such pathetic defensive posts.

Her points are entirely valid. For any triple A game you can name where we have a strong female lead, I can name TEN where they are damsels or male titilation as leads.

 

How do you know this is populated by intelligent developers? Just because someone is registered to a site, be it reddit, teamliquid or whatever doesn't make them intelligent. This is an annoying...idea that is self perpetuated by the people inside so many communities.

 

That is not a point, but it is a valid observation.

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Not to mention, in the case of this forum right here, there are a lot of good points being made about her delivery/use of random backer money which as a content creator she could have constructively used- even if some of us are raging a bit.

To my mind, this thread is a prime example of why she is justified in disabling comments. While you all may not be as verbally abusive as the average YouTube commenter, you aren't exactly bashing her any the less for it - and constructive criticism beyond "spend money better" has been few and far between.

 

I would like to think better of our community, but I can't help the feeling that most of you would be responding in a different way, were she either not female, or not working on this particular issue...

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I haven't yet had a chance to watch the video in the OP, but I did happen across this [url="http://kotaku.com/5989753/cool-dad-hacks-donkey-kong-so-his-daughter-can-play-it-as-pauline"]interesting video[/url] of someone hacking donkey kong to reverse the character roles today.

Edited by rip-off
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How do you know this is populated by intelligent developers?

 

Simple. I've seen evidence of their intelligence in the work they've done, the answers they give and so on. 

 

Are there idiots on here? Of course. But the majority of people I've encountered on this site are smart.

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I can't help the feeling that most of you would be responding in a different way, were she either not female, or not working on this particular issue...

Yep, you nailed it. I'm much more tolerant of long winded, yet vapid cases when it comes to men. That's why I have a poster of Charles Krauthammer in my room.
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I can't help the feeling that most of you would be responding in a different way, were she either not female, or not working on this particular issue...

Yep, you nailed it. I'm much more tolerant of long winded, yet vapid cases when it comes to men. That's why I have a poster of Charles Krauthammer in my room.

 

You say it sarcastically, but there are a lot of people with that exact type of response- Krauthammer poster optional. After all, Charles Krauthammer himself is a wealthy and influential pundit.

Edited by Khaiy
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I can't help the feeling that most of you would be responding in a different way, were she either not female, or not working on this particular issue...

Yep, you nailed it. I'm much more tolerant of long winded, yet vapid cases when it comes to men. That's why I have a poster of Charles Krauthammer in my room.

 
Yeah I'm not really getting this argument. Either swiftcoder isn't reading my posts or is misinterpreting it: I don't give a shit whether she's a man or woman, and I actually do agree with this issue. Personally, ask me any day of the week: I will tell you that this medium needs more female protagonists and it needs to handle them, and all content, a little more maturity instead of always playing to the lowest, visceral denominator for sales numbers. Respectively, consumers need to stop eating the bullshit major publishers keep giving us and ask for something more substantial. A little guilty pleasure is okay, but its sad when its the whole industry. I will say that any day of the week.
 
What I will also say any day of the week is that if you want to come to the internet, accept $160k, and do a subpar video that's supposedly going to be an intellectual analysis and documentary of a major industry issue like this and have regurgitated wikipedia with no further analysis... I'm sorry, people are going to be upset that its a thing. And yeah, a lot of my criticism points back to the money thing... but that's because its POORLY done for that much money. That's what matters. If it was actually engaging, if I learned something new or radically different or saw things from a new perspective, or even saw this as a good way to introduce a newbie to the topic I would not even slightly care how much moolah she was rolling in. But then on top of that she won't even have the commentary about it- I'm sorry, this chick is kind of a hypocrite. And it makes people who backed that campaign looking for something substantial possibly lose interest in backing other, legitimate projects which is something that could legitimately hurt the indie community since there are a LOT of this community that has done great stuff with Kickstarter funds. Not to mention all the people who probably didn't back it, but saw all the coverage OF it and now sees that, yeah, Kickstarter is where unworthy talent goes to get paid apparently. If anything I'm angry because I do, in fact, care about the topic and the platform she earned the money from.
 
And if I seem verbally abusive, please someone tell me. I AM angry about it, but like... not at you guys or anyone on this forum. I was only posting here for discussion's sake, because for the aforementioned reasons I kind of care about the topic in general. So apologies if anyone was offended by the way I said something or how my attitude came across.
 
On a side note:

I haven't yet had a chance to watch the video in the OP, but I did happen across this interesting video of someone hacking donkey kong to reverse the character roles today.

 

This is really cool and kinda sweet some dad did this for their girl. Bravo to that dad.

Edited by AniMerrill
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What I will also say any day of the week is that if you want to come to the internet, accept $160k, and ...

...I AM angry about it....

Why on earth would you be angry?

A youtuber with an existing channel and a large following put their hand up and said, hey guys I want to do this silly little niche project, if I can make 6 grand off it then I'll break even and be able to forge ahead with no worries.

...

Then people in that niche threw 26x more money at her than she needed, making it a very successful business for her, no doubt funding her work for the next many years.

 

So fucking what? She didn't ask for 26x more than her expenses. She didn't promise to expand the project if more money was thrown at her. She has fans, they gave her a lot of money and it has nothing to do with you.

 

People who backed it knew who she was and what kind of content she produced. She was already making these kinds of feminist pop-culture videos at that point, and already had a fan-base -- it's these people that funded her, not you.

 

Are you angry when people win the lottery?

Are you angry when millions of people rush out to buy the latest "Call of Honor: Medal of Duty", giving the publisher 100x their expenses while receiving the same poor quality turd they're happy to swollow every year?

Are you angry when the people behind Nicky Minaj or Justin Bieber or One Direction do the same?

 

You might not like the videos, but thousands of other people do.

 

 

 

As for comments on YouTube -- everyone knows that youtube comments are only 2nd to 4chan when it comes to useful discourse. It's not a medium for conversation or debate at all, so arguing that disabling comments there has stifled debate is ridiculous.

 

Second, when she launched her kick-starter, she was inundated with hate-mail from anti-feminist "gamer" dick-weeds, many of whom went so far as to make death threats against her. 4chan in particular had a field day with her. She has good reason to believe that youtube comments will be full of the worst kind of abuse. In fact, the main reason that she received so much funding was because the severity of this harassment turned it into a big news story, and many people decided to over-fund her in order to show their support and solidarity against the misogynist hordes attacking her!

 

If you really want to join the conversation, you're free to do so within the little feminist communities which the series is targeted at / made for / funded by, such as in the tumblsphere or facebook, or on forums like this.

Edited by Hodgman
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