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Xanather

Goodbye Start button?

63 posts in this topic

I heard somewhere that windows 9/blue wont have the start button either. I personally see this as a disappointment, the start screen is designed for touch screens not desktops.

Thoughts? Do you think this is a disappointment?

 

I don't want to sound stubborn, but I think I'm going to stay with Win7 for as long as a possibly can until new games and applications clease to function unless Microsoft makes non-awkward desktop OS before that happens.

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I don't want to sound stubborn, but I think I'm going to stay with Win7 for as long as a possibly can until new games and applications clease to function unless Microsoft makes non-awkward desktop OS before that happens.

They seem to have a policy of alternating between making an annoying OS and a follow-up more stable version of it, so I'm down with this plan. According to the pattern, Win9 has to be decent laugh.png

95 -> 98 -> Me -> XP -> Vista -> 7 -> 8 ...

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I don't really care anymore. I have decided to stay with Win7 myself and have set up my laptop with elementary os to get comfortable with linux. Now that steam is available for linux and more games get ported it can only gain traction.

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I am currently running windows 8.  I have no start button but I find I do not really miss it.  This is probably because I have heavily used linux with the new gnome desktop environment.  After a while you just get into the groove of hitting the windows key type the application name and hit enter.  It is very fast if you know the name of the application you want.  My most used applications are as shortcuts right on the desktop so I can access them quicker.  Over all it is a very solid OS with very few issues.  The only time I see that metro start screen is when I need the odd ball application and when the computer boots up.  As for Linux I really wish I could make it my primary OS I have tried several times but so many things I do run better on windows or only on windows.  One such case is AVR micro controllers.  The IDE with all the awesome memory view features is built on Visual Studio 10 issolated shell.  On linux you are stuck with avr-gcc/gdb/avrdude.  Not that this is bad but I don't think avr-gdb gives you the ability to see the values the registers are holding.  PIC has full linux support but I am using both chips at the moment.  Then there is the new MSOffice 2013 totally amazing this time around.  Really well done set of software.  Then there is my Oscilloscope that has software for windows/mac only.

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I am currently running windows 8.  I have no start button but I find I do not really miss it.  This is probably because I have heavily used linux with the new gnome desktop environment.  After a while you just get into the groove of hitting the windows key type the application name and hit enter.  It is very fast if you know the name of the application you want.  My most used applications are as shortcuts right on the desktop so I can access them quicker.  Over all it is a very solid OS with very few issues.  The only time I see that metro start screen is when I need the odd ball application and when the computer boots up.  As for Linux I really wish I could make it my primary OS I have tried several times but so many things I do run better on windows or only on windows.

 

QFE, if you got used to just typing the application name in windows 7, then you really don't need a classic start menu anymore.  I don't have any desktop icons anymore just because I know what i'm looking for.  I never have to go through the control panel because i can just type in "Network" and get to the network and sharing center, i can type "folders" and modify my folders settings, "Devices" to get to devices and printers, etc.  Windows 8 just improves this process imo.

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I don't have any desktop icons anymore just because I know what i'm looking for. I never have to go through the control panel because i can just type in "Network" and get to the network and sharing center, i can type "folders" and modify my folders settings, "Devices" to get to devices and printers, etc. Windows 8 just improves this process imo.

 

Agree 100%. I am using windows 8 and I am not going back to windows 7. When I want something I just type it instead of seraching the start button tree. I find it more convient :)

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QFE, if you got used to just typing the application name in windows 7, then you really don't need a classic start menu anymore. 

Yeah I hated it at first when 7/vista redesigned the start menu... but now the only way I use it is by typing in that search box.

I also hardly bother organising my file system in windows explorer any more thanks to Everything... cool.png

Edited by Hodgman
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I've been pressing the windows key and typing in the program name since windows 7. Now that I use windows 8, not much has changed. In windows 7 I had a few programs listed in the initial start menu that I frequently used that I'd click on. In windows 8 I have a set of tiles, which I quite frankly like more than my old start menu.

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I'm not up to speed on this, but from a developer's perspective, wasn't the main concern the fact that Microsoft was moving towards closing the OS, and that people will no longer be able to release applications unless Microsoft approves of those applications?

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I'm not up to speed on this, but from a developer's perspective, wasn't the main concern the fact that Microsoft was moving towards closing the OS, and that people will no longer be able to release applications unless Microsoft approves of those applications?

I think if Microsoft were to release a full closed OS, they'd basically be killing themselves, for the desktop at least.

 

 

I don't want to sound stubborn, but I think I'm going to stay with Win7 for as long as a possibly can until new games and applications clease to function unless Microsoft makes non-awkward desktop OS before that happens.

They seem to have a policy of alternating between making an annoying OS and a follow-up more stable version of it, so I'm down with this plan. According to the pattern, Win9 has to be decent laugh.png

95 -> 98 -> Me -> XP -> Vista -> 7 -> 8 ...

Yes but I feel that this time is going to be different, just a feeling. I did read they were going to "improve" the start screen some how... we'll have to wait and find out, hopefully it takes desktop into consideration this time and does not completely fill the whole screen unnecessarily.

Edited by Xanather
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I'm not up to speed on this, but from a developer's perspective, wasn't the main concern the fact that Microsoft was moving towards closing the OS, and that people will no longer be able to release applications unless Microsoft approves of those applications?

Yes, but also remember a lot of developers think that a walled garden is the only way to go. If that wasn't the case iOS would have flopped miserably, yet there are lots of people who swear for that system.

 

Also I should feel like an idiot for thinking this thread would have been about the Start button in controllers XD

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I'm not up to speed on this, but from a developer's perspective, wasn't the main concern the fact that Microsoft was moving towards closing the OS, and that people will no longer be able to release applications unless Microsoft approves of those applications?

 

This is only true for metro applications which can only be installed from microsofts windows store. Yeah, but still pretty bad for a desktop system.

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I'm not up to speed on this, but from a developer's perspective, wasn't the main concern the fact that Microsoft was moving towards closing the OS, and that people will no longer be able to release applications unless Microsoft approves of those applications?

Yes, but also remember a lot of developers think that a walled garden is the only way to go. If that wasn't the case iOS would have flopped miserably, yet there are lots of people who swear for that system.

your comparing apples and oranges.  Not only are your comparing desktop platforms to mobile platforms(which you could partially consider to be like a console) . Apple also came out of the gate with the walled system, and everyone accepted it.  Microsoft has always kept the system open for any application to run on your desktop, to suddenly create a wall is just asking everyone to ignore the os, and stay on their older more open OS's.

 

windows 8 right now is in that borderland, of allowing walled applications, but still keeping it open for desktop applications, if windows 9 decides to flip it over to being 100% walled, i can't imagine the os being widely adopted.

Edited by slicer4ever
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Whilst it is true that Windows 8 doesn't have a start button, it certainly doesn't stop you making one with a third party app.  I have had Windows 8 on since before Christmas, at first when I installed it I liked the speed, it was much faster than my previous OS which had been the dreaded Windows Vista 64 bit (although actually Vista I never found as bad as some people - possibly because I had a decent level of hardware to cope with it).

 

The only thing I didn't like about 8 was the absence of the start button and the awkward way of closing anything that has opened up in that Metro interface, the lack of a close button seems really annoying when your sat there looking at a document in reader and you try and get out of the damn thing looking around everywhere for the close button.

 

However luckily StarDock Start8 software came to the rescue and for a couple of quid I could have my faithful start menu right back where I wanted it, and change it so that when it booted up it would show me the desktop along with the start menu instead of plunging me into the Metro interface.

 

Now for me Windows 8 seems fine, it runs super fast and I've got a standard desktop as well as the metro interface.

 

I also found that I recently purchased a second monitor, and by having two monitors it is really useful as you can have the metro interface taking over one, whilst having the desktop on the other.  It does make things a lot more easier at that point.

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Yes, but also remember a lot of developers think that a walled garden is the only way to go. If that wasn't the case iOS would have flopped miserably, yet there are lots of people who swear for that system.

 

If that is the case then why has Android been so successful - there is no walled garden there, Android is far more open to everything, has a large number of apps and is available on a lot more different manufacturers devices than iOS giving the end user free choice as to what they want their device to do, and I don't see Android losing any ground soon.  Actually the biggest flop was years ago when 3 launched the Motorola A920 which was an amazing smartphone, totally ahead of it's time (I had one and it was really nice!), but it was 3's walled garden that caused major problems as they locked down everything on the phone - the built in GPS, web browsers, bluetooth,  symbian app store, etc and so it turned what could have been such an amazing smartphone into a useless brick.  3's main concern at the time was for viruses to infiltrate their phone network, but eventually they had to give in to public demand and offered to remove the brick wall from peoples phones so they could use the additional technology.  The only reason why iOS is so popular is not because of it's walled garden, it's simply because of the Apple name, it is like in the 80's people had Sony Walkman's, and it was the in thing to have a Walkman with Sony on it, even if you had the latest top of the range Panasonic cassette player which probably had more features on than the Sony Walkman.

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I still can't understand the hoopla around the Win 8 Metro start screen. To me it's simply a fullscreen start menu that has the advantages that

 

a) it can fit many more default programs/shortcuts

b) it can display more search results

c) it will allow you to allot desktop space to "start menu" space by simply defining where your shortcuts lie

 

Can anyone really say that they've ever used the desktop while using the start menu?

 

In short, it's a matter of perspective: the entire Metro screen is the start menu. The only thing I'm not sold on is the mouse swipe to display the helper bar to show it. Pressing Win key on the keyboard is okay, but the mouse version is a bit slowpoke. IMO people's fixation on the orb seems near ridiculous. Furthermore, any argument that Win 8 is a lesser OS than Win 7 is just plain abstract rumbling.

 

Win+X alone is worth the upgrade for me. It's be come as second nature to me as Win 7's drag-to-edge-of-screen-to-split-or-maximize.

 

In short - on the surface it's the same OS. It just uses a different start menu system. If anyone can fault Win 8's internal workings, then please go at it. I haven't found anything more wrong with it than with 7.

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 When I want something I just type it instead of seraching the start button tree. I find it more convient smile.png


That's a 35 year step backwards in user interface, though.

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Agree with the person above me.So we created an UI just to go back to writing commands again?!

 

Windows 9 will be the same for pc users,you can already see that they are desperate to gain some control,mostly because no one wants a windows phone,and not too many people want their tablets.

 

In my opinion their only strong point are the games.If devs started creating games for some other os,Microsoft would be done.

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Agree with the person above me.So we created an UI just to go back to writing commands again?!

 

Windows 9 will be the same for pc users,you can already see that they are desperate to gain some control,mostly because no one wants a windows phone,and not too many people want their tablets.

 

In my opinion their only strong point are the games.If devs started creating games for some other os,Microsoft would be done.

 

who said anything about commands?, like hell do i wanna go back to the days where i had to remember entering the correct flags to pass to a program.  that doesn't mean it's not incredibly useful for quickly searching your file system to get to applications.

 

As well, if we look at metro on it's own, i honestly think it's leagues better then the old start menu anyway.  it's pretty much a well designed second desktop imo, it doesn't waste much excess space, and gets straight to the point for what you want to do.  I do however agree that launching metro apps as full screen programs defeats the purpose of multi-tasking for the most part, but most of the time i'm just launching desktop apps anyway.

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Agree with the person above me.So we created an UI just to go back to writing commands again?!

 

Windows 9 will be the same for pc users,you can already see that they are desperate to gain some control,mostly because no one wants a windows phone,and not too many people want their tablets.

 

In my opinion their only strong point are the games.If devs started creating games for some other os,Microsoft would be done.

 

Never underestimate Microsoft in the business desktop/server market.  That is their main source of revenue and it isn't going anywhere for a long time.  Plus this market tends to be so slow moving that it's going to be many years before it even has to deal with the lack of a Start button, by which time Microsoft will have solved any remaining issues around it (or - at worst - most users will have become so accustomed to it that it's not going to be a problem anymore).  Microsoft aren't going to be "done" for quite a while yet, despite wishful thinking from certain quarters (who seem to have a particularly poor understanding of exactly the reasons why they're successful).  They may lose the plot from time to time, but they have this habit of coming back stronger than before.

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 When I want something I just type it instead of seraching the start button tree. I find it more convient smile.png


That's a 35 year step backwards in user interface, though.

 

Yes... navigating a tree of folders to find what you want is so much more modern...

Edited by tstrimple
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I find people break down into two camps on Windows 8. Those what have not used it who bitch and moan about a missing little orb and archaic tree view of your programs. And those that have used it and realize it's a complete non-issue, and is a much more efficient way to interact with your programs. 

 

I understand that there is fear about Windows completely becoming a walled garden, but those are unfounded. Look at the history of Microsoft and the troubles they have taken to maintain backwards compatibility in applications. As others have said, removing the ability to run desktop apps completely would be suicide for the operating system.

 

What the app store does, and does well is give people a safe and easy place to install applications without having to try to trust random 3rd party installers and payment systems. No more toolbars installed automatically for you from every 3rd party software company (I'm looking at you Oracle) who is trying to make some money at your expense. 

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Regarding the "walled garden", and getting back to the business market, this is one thing that's definitely not going to happen.  Microsoft screwed up recently enough with Vista, providing an OS on which so much third-party software just did not work that nobody, outside of a pure Microsoft-house that's willing to upgrade everything to the latest version, was willing to take up.  Disconnecting release dates of the server version from the client version also meant that there was an extended period during which Domain Admins couldn't actually manage the new features of the client OS.

 

It seems clear that there are strong forces in Microsoft who want to "do a Vista" again, but it's also clear that there's recognition there that it didn't work last time round (Windows 7 and the recoupling of release dates were reactions to that and they both worked very well).  The business desktop will never be a "walled garden" because it's an obstacle to upgrading - what business is going to upgrade to the latest version of Windows if they have to throw out all of their legacy and third-party programs and start over?  Answer: none.  It happened with Vista and it will happen again, and Microsoft know this now.

 

So from that perspective all talk of a "walled garden" is nothing more than FUD, and it becomes necessary to question the motives of anyone who keeps on bringing it up.

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Windows blue has been leaked,incase you want to know,it's pretty much the same thing as 8

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Windows blue has been leaked,incase you want to know,it's pretty much the same thing as 8

 

Expected at this point in time.  It's still a good while from release and is obviously being built on the 8 codebase, so these early versions shouldn't be much different.

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