Just to agree with previous two posts.
Personally I''d go for an online tute for Win32; I learnt Win32 from the tutorial I linked to above, and then took it further on my own. While I have a generic C++ book (which isn''t the best one around by a long way), I''ve never bought a Win32/OGL book.
However, and this is my point, once you''ve got the basics down, use MSDN as an everyday reference. Remember it''s a MS compiler you''re using and MSDN is effectively the Visual Studio help file - why on earth be afraid of your compiler''s documentation?
Spend an hour looking around MSDN and getting to know what lives where, and playing with the Advanced Search. Once you get used to the layout, MSDN is WONDERFUL. And it''s the definitive source.
Running away from such a wonderful free resource will limit you hugely to only learning what other people have distilled into tutorials.
err.. a Win-related question
If all you want to do are 3D OpenGL games, then forget about the Win-32 API - it''s useless. You will be learning for weeks or even months only to do a single dialog - a waste of time.
Why not doing it in OpenGL ? You could even do nice looking dialogs, instead of those boring Windows-crap-ones.
Why not doing it in OpenGL ? You could even do nice looking dialogs, instead of those boring Windows-crap-ones.
quote:If all you want to do are 3D OpenGL games, then forget about the Win-32 API - it''s useless.
That''s not true. If you ever try to make a game, there''s a good chance you''ll need a level editor. Win32 is great for that kind of stuff. I made a tile-map editor, using OpenGL for rendering and win32 for controls like buttons, menus and everything else...
I''d say that a programmer who knows nothing but OpenGL is a pretty useless programmer. I don''t mean that newbies should learn the win32-API before anything else, it''s hard to start with, but you should eventually learn it. Saying that it''s useless is just plain crazy...
MSDN is good for reference I think, and when you want to start playing with things like ListBoxes, or having a tray icon for your app, but if you know zilch about WinApi, eighter get a Book (almost any game prog book has basic winapi) or find a tutorial, basic things like the message pump, and the Winproc Function are not covered in detail there.
Why you don''t use Borland C++ Builder ?
It''s simple to use and does Win32 and you may port your source to Linux via Kyrix (not sure).
You can make as many Win32-Controls as you want using Borland''s VCL.
I''m working on porting NeHe''s Framework to BC++Builder.
It''s simple to use and does Win32 and you may port your source to Linux via Kyrix (not sure).
You can make as many Win32-Controls as you want using Borland''s VCL.
I''m working on porting NeHe''s Framework to BC++Builder.
[quote}
That''s not true. If you ever try to make a game, there''s a good chance you''ll need a level editor. Win32 is great for that kind of stuff. I made a tile-map editor, using OpenGL for rendering and win32 for controls like buttons, menus and everything else...
3DSmax, Maya, Softimage, Blender, Milkshape.
I don''t think so. Fact is: If you do a 3D game, esp. using OpenGL, what Win32 functions do you use ? Hmm ?? You open a windows, get a rendering context, and close that window when the game ends. That''s it. Games using external option menus written under the Win-API (such as the mentioned Unreal ext. options) are extremly rare, normally everything is done in the games environment.
Things are different if you''re writting a Windows application, ofcourse. But, I''m sorry, if you write a game, it *is* useless to learn Win32.
Oh really ? Suppose you want to code Quake4 or whatever. Then please tell me (being an OGL pro, but no clue about the Win32 API, so a useless programmer following your definition) what Win32-API functions do *you* exactly need for such a game ??? Besides opening a window, closing a windows, minimal event handling and multitreading ? Note that DirectX is *not* Win32...
That''s not true. If you ever try to make a game, there''s a good chance you''ll need a level editor. Win32 is great for that kind of stuff. I made a tile-map editor, using OpenGL for rendering and win32 for controls like buttons, menus and everything else...
3DSmax, Maya, Softimage, Blender, Milkshape.
quote:
I don''t mean that newbies should learn the win32-API before anything else, it''s hard to start with, but you should eventually learn it. Saying that it''s useless is just plain crazy...
I don''t think so. Fact is: If you do a 3D game, esp. using OpenGL, what Win32 functions do you use ? Hmm ?? You open a windows, get a rendering context, and close that window when the game ends. That''s it. Games using external option menus written under the Win-API (such as the mentioned Unreal ext. options) are extremly rare, normally everything is done in the games environment.
Things are different if you''re writting a Windows application, ofcourse. But, I''m sorry, if you write a game, it *is* useless to learn Win32.
quote:
I''d say that a programmer who knows nothing but OpenGL is a pretty useless programmer.
Oh really ? Suppose you want to code Quake4 or whatever. Then please tell me (being an OGL pro, but no clue about the Win32 API, so a useless programmer following your definition) what Win32-API functions do *you* exactly need for such a game ??? Besides opening a window, closing a windows, minimal event handling and multitreading ? Note that DirectX is *not* Win32...
quote:3DSmax, Maya, Softimage, Blender, Milkshape.You''re right to a certain extent. Those programs are great for making models and maybe levels, but there''s no way you''ll be able to, for example, make a editor for tile-maps with any of those. And there''s other kind of editors to. Maybe one for making NPC:s for a RPG (I''m not talking about the models, but their stats, inventory and so on. Might be nice to have an easy-to-use interface for that). The point is that some sort of editors does not exist, and you might have to do them yourself. Sure, it''s possible to use other things for that, but the win32-API is good for that kind of stuff.
quote:being an OGL pro, but no clue about the Win32 API, so a useless programmer following your definition
ok, I agree that was a bad choice of words from my side. What I mean is that a programmer should know more than one thing. Windows is so common, it might be a good idea to actually being able to use the Win32-API. Once again I return to the editor-stuff. It''s a fact that for a big project you''ll need good editors. And if you, like most people here, isn''t a proffesional game-developer, you''ll probably have to do it yourself, since there''s a good chance there''s no ''Tools-programmer'' in you group.
quote:Note that DirectX is *not* Win32...
Heh, nice try. I actually knew that already...
quote:If all you want to do are 3D OpenGL games, then forget about the Win-32 API - it''s useless. You will be learning for weeks or even months only to do a single dialog - a waste of time.
(I don''t know if this is the same AP as the last one, but it really doesn''t matter)
What I find really strange is that everyone say Win32-coding is so damn hard. Yes, it''s hard if you''re just starting to learn about programming, but if you, AP, is a OpenGL pro like you said, you probably now quite a lot of C/C++ too, right? If that''s the case, I promise you''ll be able to learn enough to do a pretty nice, useful windows-program in a few days...
Sorry if I offended anyone with my last post, that was not my intention.
I do not have any numbers but I think almost all more advanced GUI code for Windows is using MFC or VCL. You have some free alternatives like V and wxWindows(?) but I do not know how good they are.
MS and Borland have lot of tools and templates for this.
OpenGL is certainly much more fun than GUI programming.
MS and Borland have lot of tools and templates for this.
OpenGL is certainly much more fun than GUI programming.
quote:I do not have any numbers but I think almost all more advanced GUI code for Windows is using MFC or VCL. You have some free alternatives like V and wxWindows(?) but I do not know how good they are.
MS and Borland have lot of tools and templates for this.
You're right about that... I didn't say there's no alternetives to Win32, I was just trying to point out that it is useful for game-programming....
quote:OpenGL is certainly much more fun than GUI programming
I definitly agree with you about that!
Edited by - Rudan on October 24, 2001 11:49:14 AM
Author
Thanks for the debate.
I WAS actually looking forward to an easy way out. I mean I know the basics in WinAPI, I''m not a total stranger. I just thought maybe someone knew a way to access such a cotrol without having to mess around with creating it...
Obviously I''m gonna have to resort to something simpler (since I really-really-REALLY don''t have the time to spend on creating a custom control from scratch - you know, school and stuff and all...).
As to game-programming, well - it depends on the type of game. In most genres, i definitely agree with the ogl-proponents here, OpenGL and DX beat the standard Win32 API, even if it is not something bigBigBIG and 3D
I WAS actually looking forward to an easy way out. I mean I know the basics in WinAPI, I''m not a total stranger. I just thought maybe someone knew a way to access such a cotrol without having to mess around with creating it...
Obviously I''m gonna have to resort to something simpler (since I really-really-REALLY don''t have the time to spend on creating a custom control from scratch - you know, school and stuff and all...).
As to game-programming, well - it depends on the type of game. In most genres, i definitely agree with the ogl-proponents here, OpenGL and DX beat the standard Win32 API, even if it is not something bigBigBIG and 3D
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