Starting without wanting to find a job

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13 comments, last by MichaelNIII 10 years, 11 months ago

I am currently confused about if the way I am proceeding is the right way to go, my end aim is to create a game based around some key concepts I believe would combine into a great game.

I want to create an engine and a game designed around a core concept; That the world does not revolve around the player. This would mean a fully dynamic world, no linear paths, no AI sitting outside a cave waiting for the player to clear it for them. The AI and the world goes on with its day to day order, war, poverty, murder, etc. The player has to find a holding in the world and make what they can of it. Also the gameplay would be highly realistic, meaning locational damage, sword-to-chest meaning death and core survival elements including hunger and thirst.

Regardless of the idea, my main confusion comes from my wanting to become an indie developer (no job in a way) and self-teach everything I need to know.

I have finished Year 10 and left school. People I know say I am a smart guy. I excelled at IPT (computing) and English, and Math (when I was enthusiastic about what I was learning). I could never focus while at school, and though I got A's and B's, I was always thinking about development, engines and games. Last minute assignments and high grades. I know alot about how games work, how engines work, know JavaScript and core programming concepts like variables and functions. I am also skilled at Hardware and PC's.

I have bought Accelerated C++ (understanding it well enough so far) and begun learning the language, gathered people I can trust and are enthusiastic about game development too, some are coders, others are interested in modelling or sound.

Is it necessary to attend college, to finish Year 12 in order to be successful in the Games Industry as an independent developer? Can you succeed with a clear idea, skill and unlimited time?

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I think you would be making a poor career and life choice if you didn't finish school.

The answer to your question depends on what you define "successful" as. It is certainly possible to develop and release a game on your own time purely utilizing your own ideas and skills. However, the chance of that release becoming commercial success of the order required to serve as a replacement for full-time employment is smaller. It depends both on some measure of chance and some non-trivial measure of the skills you have in the realm of marketing and publicizing your game. If you go this route and the end result is a commercial flop, as is the case with most indie games, you'll find yourself in the potentially awkward position of having a subpar education relative your peers who you may now be competing in the job market against, simply because you need to do something to bring in sufficient sustained income to pay your rent.

There's no reason you should be gathering a team to help you on this game project at this point, you're only just learning the basic skills you'll need to put your game together. You can achieve a huge percentage of the work of making this game on your own, so bringing in other people will only complicate the process for you. Remove that complication and use the extra time it gives you to stay in school. Your future self will probably thank you.

Almost everybody who is technically inclined and/or intelligent has a tendency to develop the notion, at one point during their education, that they don't need school. That they're smart enough already. Most of the time those people are wrong, and the sooner they can be disabused of this notion, the better things will turn out for them in the long run. It sounds like you're going through that phase and you need to work through it -- it's unpleasant, I realize, but you should look for ways to work through the problems and boredom you are facing.

The paper that you linked, for example, is not impressive in any capacity. It's really little more than a large glossary of terms and the definitions you apply to those terms are in some cases wrong and in some cases clearly reflect your own youth and inexperience. It would make a very poor technical reference for anything.

If you're only learning C++ now you have a ways to go before you can really start building a game of any note -- especially since C++ is a very poor choice of first language (and if you already know another language, you could be using that instead to start building games now). Stay in school and work on putting together some games in your spare time. In a few years you'll actually have some games that might be a bit fun and are capable of demonstrating something more than basic core competencies in game development, and not only will that help you along your goal of making this non-player-centric game, but will put you well ahead of many hopeful game developers who will be finishing school and applying for jobs with no games or projects under their belt whatsoever beyond the stuff they were required to do for school.

Althrough I often vote against collage education, in your case it would be the best choice to continue education and develop your programming skills in your spare time.

You don't realize yet that it is A LOT harder to make a game than it seems at first sight. I am professional game developer for years, I am doing a game in my spare time (it is fairly complex game, not some puzzle), and I am sometimes overwhelmed by amount of work and knowledge I need to make it work.

And you want to make an engine (absolutely useless waste of time in my opinion) AND a game. That 100x more work then making a game alone, You will need to study dozens of books with hard stuff, you will need to learn collage math.

If you are going to learn all that stuff anyways, why not learn it in a collage and get a degree AND knowledge? It is your best bet.

For every college dropout success story like Michael Dell, there are a couple thousand college dropout failures like that 47 year old dude making milkshakes for high schoolers down at the McDonalds. Finish school and go to college, kid.

especially since C++ is a very poor choice of first language (and if you already know another language, you could be using that instead to start building games now)

In my opinion, this is somewhat subjective advice and should be taken with a grain of salt. Programming languages are tools, and I agree with the sentiment that if you already know how to use a tool to accomplish your goal, it might be a good idea to just go ahead and start hacking away. Game development is difficult enough without throwing the complexities of C++ into the mix at the same time.

However, if you're thinking long term and you have the patience, building super basic games in C++ as you learn the language might not be a bad way to start. It's a pretty powerful tool to have in your belt for a number of reasons. Just my 2 cents.

I could never focus while at school, and though I got A's and B's, I was always thinking about development, engines and games.


Then go back to school, and get more A's and B's.

Last minute assignments and high grades.


Then blagging your way through A-Level's and a degree will be easier for you than for other people.

I know alot about how games work, how engines work, know JavaScript and core programming concepts like variables and functions. I am also skilled at Hardware and PC's.


But how's your knowledge of Lagrangian mechanics? Poisson distributions? Standard deviation? The rules of integration and differentiation? Pipelined architectures? Data structures? Computational efficiency? BN notation? Colour theory? The physics behind lenses? Mutexs? Locks? Lock-free code? SIMD? Solutions to sparse matrices? Can you dervie the equations to convert a quaternion to a matrix from scratch?

You know, the stuff you're forced to learn in univeristy and A-Levels?

I have bought Accelerated C++ (understanding it well enough so far) and begun learning the language, gathered people I can trust and are enthusiastic about game development too, some are coders, others are interested in modelling or sound.


Well that's great, but can you learn from them? I'm sure you'll all be able to learn the basics together, however that's very different from being taught by, or working with, people with bucket loads of experience. You'll learn far more, at a much quicker pace, than you ever will in a group of beginners.

Is it necessary to attend college, to finish Year 12 in order to be successful in the Games Industry as an independent developer?



Most companies have HR departments that filter CV's before they get put infront of the team leads. The filters they use are rudimentary, and mainly involve the question: "Do they have a degree?". If the answer is no, it will be binned.
The ONLY people in the games industry who've made it without a degree, are those individuals who made a name for themselves. For example, I know one guy who was hired as a developer on 3ds Max when he was 16, because for the 3 years prior, he'd been publishing and releasing plug-ins for 3ds Max that were better than the ones written by Autodesk, so they offered him a job. So yes it's possible to make it without a degree, but only if someone is already offering to hire you. Otherwise, no chance.

Can you succeed with a clear idea, skill and unlimited time?


Yes, however you do not have unlimited time, so the answer will always be no. Simple fact is, if you are not studying, you will need to find work sooner or later. Once you start working 40 hours a week, you really won't have anywhere near enough time to spend learning games programming. You'll then be competing against a load of students who can devote every hour, of every day, to doing nothing but learning about games programming. In 5 years time, they'll know a hell of a lot more than you, and their degree will get them through the first HR recruitment hurdle.

Education is what you make of it, and the more you put into it, the more you'll get out. Yes G.C.S.E. and A levels are a bit tedious, but at university, things get a lot more flexible. If you are doing a CS degree, but want to learn more about maths, it's easy to ask a tutor from the maths dept if you can sit in the back of their lectures, and they usually say yes. Learn as much as you can, from as many people as you can, and then getting a job in the industry will be easy. If you simply try to learn everything yourself, you'll just avoid learning the most useful information, and instead end up picking up a lot of bad habits. Go to university. It is worth it in the end....

But how's your knowledge of Lagrangian mechanics? Poisson distributions? Standard deviation? The rules of integration and differentiation? Pipelined architectures? Data structures? Computational efficiency? BN notation? Colour theory? The physics behind lenses? Mutexs? Locks? Lock-free code? SIMD? Solutions to sparse matrices? Can you dervie the equations to convert a quaternion to a matrix from scratch?

Half of that stuff, having a double major myself I dont even know. And dont see the point in knowing either.

In response to the actual post. I know how you feel, just stay in school and write code in your spare time.

But how's your knowledge of Lagrangian mechanics? Poisson distributions? Standard deviation? The rules of integration and differentiation? Pipelined architectures? Data structures? Computational efficiency? BN notation? Colour theory? The physics behind lenses? Mutexs? Locks? Lock-free code? SIMD? Solutions to sparse matrices? Can you dervie the equations to convert a quaternion to a matrix from scratch?

Half of that stuff, having a double major myself I dont even know. And dont see the point in knowing either.

Well... I'm 2/3 on the way to be an Analyst Programmer (3 year degree) and there are courses for everything of that except quaternions (that's from a course of Computing Licentiature, a 5 year degree), BN notation (never heard of it) and colour theory (probably covered in the Image Processing optional course). Lens physics aren't what I'd call something you would expect from any CS degree.

Anyway, that's the fun stuff actually. Most of the courses deal with systems and organizations (the "analyst" part), software engineering (totally entertaining filling IEEE spreadsheets with requirements) and not so interesting programming ("visual programming" like using RAD Studio with Delphi).

To the point. Being an indie dev is hard... like REALLY HARD. More or less successful people (from Zomboid, Sword of Arkhanox, etc) did have some experience doing games before even starting their successful project, and they tell "horror stories" of eating lentils for entire weeks (if they had something to eat that is) and coding for the game 3/4 of the day because nobody was buying the buggy alpha/beta for example.

With the kind of dedication (madness!) you need to do that, you wouldn't be asking in a forum if its possible, you'd be moving oceans and mountains to getting your game complete already.

Nobody is forcing you to make the next Minecraft, and its not like Notch is the only happy dude in the world. So take it easy.

"I AM ZE EMPRAH OPENGL 3.3 THE CORE, I DEMAND FROM THEE ZE SHADERZ AND MATRIXEZ"

My journals: dustArtemis ECS framework and Making a Terrain Generator

Thanks for the wake up call everyone :).

I decided to go back to school next year, go to university and during all of this slowly learn and write what I need for my project. I will use this year to get ahead in 3D math and programming, so that Year 11 and 12 math is easier. Here in Australia we have an OP, and it goes from 1-20. My OP estimate was 7 (while slacking off), university requires at minimum 15.

Thankyou again.


But how's your knowledge of Lagrangian mechanics? Poisson distributions? Standard deviation? The rules of integration and differentiation? Pipelined architectures? Data structures? Computational efficiency? BN notation? Colour theory? The physics behind lenses? Mutexs? Locks? Lock-free code? SIMD? Solutions to sparse matrices? Can you dervie the equations to convert a quaternion to a matrix from scratch?

Yeah, it's probably not necessary to be an expert in every single mathematical and engineering subject to be a good game programmer. Most of the stuff you cited can be looked up on the internet or in a book without needing to remember it. Sure, knowing calculus is very useful, having a good grasp of geometric optics and how pipelined processors work helps a lot, but if someone asks me to spit out the computational complexity of [insert obscure datastructure here] or to evaluate [insert complex integral here], I'm not going to waste my time trying to recall that information or spend fifteen minutes integrating by parts and starting over because I made a sign error, I'm just going to look it up on google/give it to mathematica respectively. It's not being lazy, it's being pragmatic.

Never memorize something you can look up. Oh, and another one I like: the important stuff is never on exams. So learn in your own time, if possible before you cover it in class, and use high school/university to guide you to your next topic and patch up any holes you might have missed during your self-learning (that last point is very important! if you don't regularly recalibrate your own knowledge with some reference curriculum you will crash and burn very quickly! and remember to practice what you learned as well, just "knowing" is useless). That's always worked for me, so I recommend it though people vary in how they learn so YMMV.

“If I understand the standard right it is legal and safe to do this but the resulting value could be anything.”

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