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DropnFBombs

Microsoft burned down my home, where now?

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DropnFBombs    92

Long story short I've been using XNA for 6 years now just playing around with code, not actually producing anything.  It helped me get to where I am today; a professional coder using C#.  Well, apparently XNA is dead.  After 2 hours of despair I decided that I'd try going to C++ and Direct X (I used them at school so I have some idea of what I'm doing).  From what I've ready I can't do that with the new version of VSE; I have to pay to upgrade which I refuse to do unless I started actually making money from my hobby.

 

So where to now?  I've been looking at Unity, which apparently uses C#, however I've never been able to get into it, like at all.  I install it, see what looks like a map editor, and decide it's not for me because I'm not looking for a game engine I'm looking for a game library.  I'm not really sure if there is anything like XNA out there.  

 

I can say I'm pretty pissed off at Microsoft; all this talk about supporting Indie development then they just yank out the carpet for no reason.  I honestly don't know why they did it, especially with them trying to get people developing cross system apps for Windows 8 and especially with them having C# as a primary app language.  It just made sense to me that they would expand on XNA to work with all versions of Win 8, straight PC, 360, and the new 720, but instead they slammed the door shut.  Don't know where to go from here.

 

Any thoughts?

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VladR    722

No, XNA is not dead. I suspect it will get at least 3-4 more years of life, at least.

 

I, for one, am viewing the lack of updates to the API as a Good Thing (no more broken code for dubious new "features").

 

3 yrs ago, I switched from C++/DirectX into C# / XNA. Yes, I still have the C++/DX engine/game codebase. But I'm not returning back to it.

 

 

I am sticking to XNA, since thanks to MonoGame I have an access to all platforms i could possibly have my games on. Yes, iOs and Android require some investment (Xamarin), but without Mac you can't really test your app anyway (i.e. using remote desktop - virtual macs), so it's not that big of a deal.

 

 

 

It remains to be seen how much of an indie support will the new XBOX get. Let's wait for that first, before burrying XNA...

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walsh06    1412

monogame is written the exact same as XNA the only difference is how it handles resources. I had to use it recently for a competition and after a short while setting it up I had no problems with it.

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Dynamo_Maestro    769

If you are use to C#, try SharpDX it is really nice to work with, I never really liked XNA as it hid far too much lower level stuff that was important from a learning perspective and was DX9 only. I say give SharpDX a go before going pure raw C++ or COM warfare as I like to call it

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Xanather    782

I agree, I think it would have been a great idea for Microsoft to continue with XNA and integrate it with the new Windows 8 Metro/store etc, instead they did not, who knows why?

 

I think the final determination of Microsoft and indie game developers will be what they do with the NextBox. Ive already left XNA and have been using MonoGame and MonoGame only (I only use XNA to compile content once in a while). The Windows DirectX platform of MonoGame will probably release soon (the current released windows version uses OpenGL), you can already use a early version of it by downloading from the MonoGame github.

 

The DirectX MonoGame platform uses SharpDX and Direct3D11, they have already started expanding the API further than XNA (multiple window support, RenderTarget3D class, etc...)

Edited by Xanather

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0r0d    1929

Long story short I've been using XNA for 6 years now just playing around with code, not actually producing anything.  It helped me get to where I am today; a professional coder using C#.  Well, apparently XNA is dead.  After 2 hours of despair I decided that I'd try going to C++ and Direct X (I used them at school so I have some idea of what I'm doing).  From what I've ready I can't do that with the new version of VSE; I have to pay to upgrade which I refuse to do unless I started actually making money from my hobby.

 

So where to now?  I've been looking at Unity, which apparently uses C#, however I've never been able to get into it, like at all.  I install it, see what looks like a map editor, and decide it's not for me because I'm not looking for a game engine I'm looking for a game library.  I'm not really sure if there is anything like XNA out there.  

 

I can say I'm pretty pissed off at Microsoft; all this talk about supporting Indie development then they just yank out the carpet for no reason.  I honestly don't know why they did it, especially with them trying to get people developing cross system apps for Windows 8 and especially with them having C# as a primary app language.  It just made sense to me that they would expand on XNA to work with all versions of Win 8, straight PC, 360, and the new 720, but instead they slammed the door shut.  Don't know where to go from here.

 

Any thoughts?

My thoughts are that whenever you buy into a companies proprietary tech then you're at their mercy.  Now I know that XNA is not just a Microsoft proprietary tech, since you can still use it through other means, but the point is that it's Microsoft's deal.  You somehow bought into XNA and felt entitled to it, and are now upset because MS did what MS is entitled to do... which is to stop supporting it.  Sorry, you need to deal with it.

 

If you want to stop being at the mercy of companies and their pet languages like XNA and C#, or Objective-C for Apple, then go with C++.  Not sure why you think that you cant use C++ and DirectX with Visual Studio Express, but you're wrong.

 

Personally I really dislike what MS did with XNA/C# and Xbox 360 indie development... which is to say that they mandated that you have to use it and excluded C++/native development.  I have games that I'd have loved to port to the 360, but basically MS said that they didnt want me to.  The wanted only amateurs developing for their indie games section, and that's what they got.  Now they wonder why it was a miserable failure??  All my code, engine, tools, and games are in C++.  I was not about to rewrite everything to C# just because MS and their XNA group decided to push it.  If it was really so great why is their SDK for professional development in C++?  Answer: because if they tried that game developers would rebel and jump ship like it was on fire.  I'm glad MS is getting rid of XNA.

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Chad Smith    1343

Long story short I've been using XNA for 6 years now just playing around with code, not actually producing anything.  It helped me get to where I am today; a professional coder using C#.  Well, apparently XNA is dead.  After 2 hours of despair I decided that I'd try going to C++ and Direct X (I used them at school so I have some idea of what I'm doing).  From what I've ready I can't do that with the new version of VSE; I have to pay to upgrade which I refuse to do unless I started actually making money from my hobby.

 

So where to now?  I've been looking at Unity, which apparently uses C#, however I've never been able to get into it, like at all.  I install it, see what looks like a map editor, and decide it's not for me because I'm not looking for a game engine I'm looking for a game library.  I'm not really sure if there is anything like XNA out there.  

 

I can say I'm pretty pissed off at Microsoft; all this talk about supporting Indie development then they just yank out the carpet for no reason.  I honestly don't know why they did it, especially with them trying to get people developing cross system apps for Windows 8 and especially with them having C# as a primary app language.  It just made sense to me that they would expand on XNA to work with all versions of Win 8, straight PC, 360, and the new 720, but instead they slammed the door shut.  Don't know where to go from here.

 

Any thoughts?

 

If you want to stop being at the mercy of companies and their pet languages like XNA and C#, or Objective-C for Apple, then go with C++.  Not sure why you think that you cant use C++ and DirectX with Visual Studio Express, but you're wrong.

Just saying, C# is not a "pet" language of Microsoft.  From what I understand the language definition is under control by the ECMA.  It won't disappear.

 

Though to answer the OP question, I also would say to look into MonoGame.  Though I'm not sure what you saw or read that can you can't use DirectX with Visual Studio Express?

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0r0d    1929

ust saying, C# is not a "pet" language of Microsoft.  From what I understand the language definition is under control by the ECMA. 

 

C# was created by Microsoft and they pushed it along with XNA.  So yes, it was their pet language... at least for the XNA group.   If it wasnt for that I doubt many people would be using it today.

 

t won't disappear.

Now that MS is no longer supporting it, actually yes, it probably will disappear.

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kunos    2254

Now that MS is no longer supporting it, actually yes, it probably will disappear.

 

actually MS is actively supporting and upgrading C#. A recent study shows how C# still is the most used language to develop Win8 applications.

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0r0d    1929

 

Now that MS is no longer supporting it, actually yes, it probably will disappear.

 

actually MS is actively supporting and upgrading C#. A recent study shows how C# still is the most used language to develop Win8 applications.

I have no idea if that's true or not, but it's irrelevant.  Just because something is widely used now doesnt mean it'll be widely used in the future.

 

And I should have clarified, I meant that MS isnt supporting XNA, which I think was one of the main reasons C# gained traction.  It might very well continue to be used in Win8 applications, but since this is a game development forum I'm thinking mostly of... game development.  As far as game development, c++ will continue to be the standard.

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kunos    2254

XNA, which I think was one of the main reasons C# gained traction

 

I hope you meant to add "in the game development community". Because if you are suggesting that C# is popular in general development BECAUSE of XNA then please, share the good stuff you're smoking.

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0r0d    1929

XNA, which I think was one of the main reasons C# gained traction

 

I hope you meant to add "in the game development community". Because if you are suggesting that C# is popular in general development BECAUSE of XNA then please, share the good stuff you're smoking.

It helps when you read the ENTIRE post.

 

And I should have clarified, I meant that MS isnt supporting XNA, which I think was one of the main reasons C# gained traction.  It might very well continue to be used in Win8 applications, but since this is a game development forum I'm thinking mostly of... game development.  As far as game development, c++ will continue to be the standard.

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Buster2000    4310

There were already Managed DirectX tutorial threads and managed vs non-managed flame wars here on Gamedev and other forums a few years before Microsoft even announced XNA.  There were also several .NET games programming blogs around that simply updated their content to be XNA specific.  Also the C++ DirectX SDK also had a couple of examples using C# as a scripting language from within a native C++ game.  So I think it already had traction in the game dev comunity before XNA.
 

 

Mind you you only have to remmember what happened to managed DirectX and then it isn't really a suprise that microsoft dropped XNA.

As for worrying about it ... DON'T.  You can still write games in C# as long as there is still a C# compiler available and that will be a very long time.  Monogame has already been mentioned and I'm suprised more people didn't dump XNA and move to monogame a long time ago.  It supports more platforms and the platforms it does support make it a lot easier to make money out of than the XBOX Indie crapware market.

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Starnick    1892

If you want to stop being at the mercy of companies and their pet languages like XNA and C#, or Objective-C for Apple, then go with C++.

 

Well, other posters before me brought it out...but as a professional developer who happens to work almost entirely with C#/.NET technologies (for non-game development, although in a field somewhat related...CAD software), I take umbridge with that statement. It's very narrow thinking to lump a programming language in with a framework or to refer to said framework as a language. It's not the same, and frameworks have a much shorter lifespan than languages. C# has grown to be popular more on its own merits than because of XNA (certainly helped).

 

Maybe we'll find out if anything will replace XNA when the next xbox is revealed (late may I believe now?). When sony unveiled the newest playstation they said they wanted to support indie development, I'd imagine their competitor would want to do the same.

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Dynamo_Maestro    769

And I should have clarified, I meant that MS isnt supporting XNA, which I think was one of the main reasons C# gained traction. It might very well continue to be used in Win8 applications, but since this is a game development forum I'm thinking mostly of... game development. As far as game development, c++ will continue to be the standard.

 

C++ isn't really used on its own, I like the language and use it but it isn't as super powerful as people claim it to be nor is C# another stupid slow managed language.

 

Majority aren't always right, I don't know about the game industry but I know of other major industries and typically following the bandwagon is rarely to do with productivity, it is more to do with shareholders / business managers lacking balls, and lets be honest here considering every other game released in the last few years is an ''upgrade' of some other game, I doubt the game industry are any different from other industries.

 

Besides you already said

 

"Just because something is widely used now doesnt mean it'll be widely used in the future."

 

Surely this must also apply to your C++ comment too then ;)

 

I say all of this as someone who uses both C# and C++ heavily and daily. Personally I always thought C# gained popularity because of how easy and efficient .NET was to make applications, work with databases and make websites.

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Starnick    1892

And I should have clarified, I meant that MS isnt supporting XNA, which I think was one of the main reasons C# gained traction. It might very well continue to be used in Win8 applications, but since this is a game development forum I'm thinking mostly of... game development. As far as game development, c++ will continue to be the standard.

 

C++ isn't really used on its own, I like the language and use it but it isn't as super powerful as people claim it to be nor is C# another stupid slow managed language.

 

Majority aren't always right, I don't know about the game industry but I know of other major industries and typically following the bandwagon is rarely to do with productivity, it is more to do with shareholders / business managers lacking balls, and lets be honest here considering every other game released in the last few years is an ''upgrade' of some other game, I doubt the game industry are any different from other industries.

 

Besides you already said

 

"Just because something is widely used now doesnt mean it'll be widely used in the future."

 

Surely this must also apply to your C++ comment too then ;)

 

I say all of this as someone who uses both C# and C++ heavily and daily. Personally I always thought C# gained popularity because of how easy and efficient .NET was to make applications, work with databases and make websites.

 

Not to mention, companies with a large codebase may be reluctant to tear everything up to move to the latest trend in programming languages, that's sometimes too little gain for too much work (and work that potentially will be a nightmare to test). Hell, at work we still have numerical engines written in Fortran, even though our primary application development is in C# (and bits of C++/CLI here and there).

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Kylotan    9860

C++ isn't really used on its own

Yes it is. There are plenty of games being made just in C++.

"Just because something is widely used now doesnt mean it'll be widely used in the future."

Surely this must also apply to your C++ comment too then ;)

Certainly. Nobody should be getting too attached to any one language and hoping that it'll live forever. Good programmers should be looking to learn new skills and tools when they become relevant and should be able to adapt to changes in where technology is headed. Edited by Kylotan

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0r0d    1929

++ isn't really used on its own,

Not sure what you mean by this.  Most professional gave developers use C++ on its own.

 

 


Besides you already said

 

"Just because something is widely used now doesnt mean it'll be widely used in the future."

 

Surely this must also apply to your C++ comment too then ;)

 

Yes, absolutely.  It's entirely plausible that eventually C++ will be supplanted by another language as the default/standard for game development.  But, that wont happen for a long time due to the sheer number of studios that use C++, plus how much code they have invested in the language, plus how much expertise is already there, plus the innate qualities that C++ brings to the table that are hard to match.  I feel pretty secure predicting that every next-gen console will be programmed in C++, and probably those in the gen after that.

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0r0d    1929

Not sure what you mean by this. Most professional gave developers use C++ on its own.

Well, at every games company I've worked for, they've used C++ for the engine runtime out of necessity, and then a bunch of other languages for the toolchains (C#, Python, etc) and another language for gameplay programming (Lua, UnrealScript, etc), and another language for build automation, and another language for graphics, so it does hold true in my professional career.

Yes, there's too many hurdles to using C# in your cross platform, performant core engine runtime library right now, but it is becoming more and more popular for both gameplay and tools programming due to ease of use over C++.
At the last studio I worked for, all the programmers know C++, but the game itself (not the engine) is almost entirely written in Lua, because programmer productivity is more important than performance in that kind of code...

As for it's popularity being tied to XNA, that's not at all true in the professional world because we never picked up XNA, but we did pick up C# because it's a good 'productivity language'.

Yup, I thought he meant the code for the game executable itself.  Tools, shaders, and scripting are a separate issue.  C++ isnt used for those because they are inherently different from executable code, which is the purview of C++. 

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