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snowmanZOMG

Microsoft and the Xbox One. Thoughts?

268 posts in this topic

All this just makes me glad I'm a pc gamer. When I upgrade my pc later this year, I will still have all my games; and they will look better.

 

Hell, I could do the equivalent of switching from xbox to ps3 (i.e. go from windows to mac or linux) and I'd still have at least some of my games.

 

I know that Valve could decide at any minute to turn into some kind of evil overlord, but frankly I kinda doubt it. It just doesn't make business sense for them.

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Oh, you mean the PC, where you can't resell your digital games and you need to login to steam from time to time to play them?

Consoles have never been about backwards compatibility, so lets not entertain that idea nor make it out like the Steam world is somehow some paradise compared to the majority of the plans MS have outlined.

I've also been gaming long enough to remember the early days of Steam, where people worried about their games suddenly 'going away' and how the gamers would 'never stand for losing physical disks and a lack of resell' and yet here we are, 10 years later, where for many people the idea of not buying a game digitally on the PC is a strange one and where many people are 'steam or no sale'.

Consoles are now starting to follow the Steam/Apple business model where your purchases are tied to an account and the majority of people are fine with this model so all the crying from the 'hard core' console gamers is, frankly, laughable when it comes to this.
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Oh, you mean the PC, where you can't resell your digital games and you need to login to steam from time to time to play them?

 

Exactly. All the stuff I don't give a rats arse about.

 

Consoles have never been about backwards compatibility, so lets not entertain that idea nor make it out like the Steam world is somehow some paradise compared to the majority of the plans MS have outlined.

 

So? Consoles may not be about backwards compatibility, but last night I sat down to play System Shock 2 (which I missed first time around). Not only did I get to play the game, but some enterprising mod guys had created high res textures for the whole thing.

 

I've also been gaming long enough to remember the early days of Steam, where people worried about their games suddenly 'going away' and how the gamers would 'never stand for losing physical disks and a lack of resell' and yet here we are, 10 years later, where for many people the idea of not buying a game digitally on the PC is a strange one and where many people are 'steam or no sale'.

 

I too was around when steam was released, and yes it was "teh evul" at the time and for a vocal minority, it still is.

 

Consoles are now starting to follow the Steam/Apple business model where your purchases are tied to an account and the majority of people are fine with this model so all the crying from the 'hard core' console gamers is, frankly, laughable when it comes to this.

 

Agreed.

 

Personally, I don't care that you can't loan or sell used games. I think the whole idea of selling a "used" game is ridiculous. If I like a game/movie/song/tv show, I like the idea that I'm rewarding it's creators with my cash; "used" games effectively bypass this.

 

My issue with consoles is not really about drm or whatever, it's more that there's simply nothing to appeal to me there. I hate playing FPS with a controller, kinnect is a neat toy, but frankly, kinda creepy and I have no desire to share my gaming on facebook or whatever it is that sony are pushing now. I appreciate that I am in the minority here.

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Frankly, I like the idea that game consoles have been backward compatible. But I hate the idea that the game console is being turned into a media center.

 

@phantom: consoles have had backwards compatibility since the Sega Genesis. Yes, you could play Sega Master System games on the Sega Genesis. The Golden Age of Video Gaming FTW!

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Yes, you could play Sega Master System games on the Sega Genesis.

 

You could but it required an add on that cost the same price as a master system.

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Consoles are now starting to follow the Steam/Apple business model where your purchases are tied to an account and the majority of people are fine with this model so all the crying from the 'hard core' console gamers is, frankly, laughable when it comes to this.

 

That's not really the problem.  When the Original Xbox, PS2, and Gamecube were around for example, it was a proverbial three horse race, and these consoles had to out perform each other, in order to secure their markets,  but now that Microsoft pretty much dominate the console market, there is less focus on designing 'the best gaming machine' in order to secure a customer base, and more focus on how their machines can make them more money after people have already bought them.  It seems like plenty people simply don't want change, and will buy the XB1 because they are so familiar with the 360, and I guess that's why Microsoft have been so ruthless with all the new restrictions; because they expect people to 'bend over', as it were.

 

Regular HMDI cables don't even fit in the back of the Xbox 360, no, instead we must buy the official Microsoft one (I actually removed over-sized plastic casing  around the A/V cable so mine would fit).  Plenty other things like this currently make the 360 slightly annoying, but the XB1 will take this type of design to a whole new level; controllers, headsets, cables etc will all need to be Microsoft, or made to adapt tho their new console.  

 

No backwards compatibility:  Why not?  Would it be that hard to implement?  Presumably it's to stop us all selling our 360's.

 

Plenty of my friends like to trade games in for store credit, and essentially buy new ones with that credit.  That won't be possible anymore, and the shops' business will suffer for it.  You may not care, but it's Microsoft who'll be reaping what would have been their profits.  Does no one see this as a bit too greedy?

 

Mandatory internet checks, or no single player gaming?  Why must a console be dependent on an ISP to function?  These services can experience intermittent problems, particularly weather related ones, and older consoles never required this measure.  There's some real 'backwards thinking'.  

 

I honestly don't see why I would buy a machine, so blatantly designed to milk me.  

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That's not really the problem.  When the Original Xbox, PS2, and Gamecube were around for example, it was a proverbial three horse race

The PS2 had something on the order of 75% market share. The other 25% was split by 3 consoles.

but now that Microsoft pretty much dominate the console market

No it doesn't. I think today the console market is more equal than it has ever been.
 

Regular HMDI cables don't even fit in the back of the Xbox 360, no, instead we must buy the official Microsoft one (I actually removed over-sized plastic casing  around the A/V cable so mine would fit).

I have a monoprice HDMI cable in the back of my 360 right now. o.O
 

No backwards compatibility:  Why not?  Would it be that hard to implement?  Presumably it's to stop us all selling our 360's.

More than likely it has to do with the fact that a lot of people rarely/never use backwards compatibility. It's not about the difficulty to implement; I'm reminded of the saying that goes something like, "Anything is possible if you're willing to pay the cost." It's not just about difficulty it's about cost vs. benefit. As was also the case with the Xbox 360 they probably crunched the numbers and found adding a couple million to the cost of development would only add a small benefit to most users.

People always complain about this, but really after the first year of a console's release it doesn't matter that much. Some people care more than others, but most of the people that complain about it wouldn't use it in the first place.
 

Plenty of my friends like to trade games in for store credit, and essentially buy new ones with that credit. That won't be possible anymore, and the shops' business will suffer for it. You may not care, but it's Microsoft who'll be reaping what would have been their profits.  Does no one see this as a bit too greedy?

If I had to guess they're using the steam model, in which case developers will see a good chunk of the profits. Obviously being a developer I'm ok with this.

From a consumer standpoint, those shops were rarely worth it anyway. If you're worried about greed, there is little that could be more greedy than used video game sales. Don't hide your distaste behind the greed argument, when it's already near it's peak.
 

Mandatory internet checks, or no single player gaming?  Why must a console be dependent on an ISP to function?  These services can experience intermittent problems, particularly weather related ones, and older consoles never required this measure.  There's some real 'backwards thinking'.

2 things on this.

1. They've said single player games are fine and playable offline; internet verification is only needed to confirm the license for the game when you buy it and to verify that license intermittently (they've said every 24 hours in the past, but I feel like this is a moving target).

2. The internet is a big part of people's lives now. I can understand growing pains, but over the next 5-10 years the expectation will become that you have high speed robust internet with you most of the time and especially at your home. I can understand people being hesitant, but that is what's going to happen. That is not just a Microsoft expectation either; every tech company I know of is pushing towards the internet being an integral and near constant part of your life. I cannot fault them for designing their system around realistic expectations for the future.
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Overall, it still boggles my mind they chose cable TV for the presentation when I think cable's slowly dying in favor of streaming services. Show me a search for a show with results for which streaming services have which seasons at what cost (if I don't have them) or take me straight to them if I do, and then checking Facebook in the corner or something. A TV guide is a complete non-issue for me and a lot of guys in my 18-35 demo.

 

Helpful tip for people. If you want to cancel your payment it's easier to do on xbox.com than over the phone. Though they have gotten better about doing it over the phone. I stopped using their payments a while ago though. I only buy prepaid 12 month cards when they go on sale. Any other way is a total ripoff.

 

Yes. Prepaid cards are the way to go- in fact, the credit card I have registered on Live I'm pretty sure is expired. That, or it's this prepaid card with about 28 cents on it... You can find 12 month cards pretty regularly for $35. Set up a Google alert or the like to find them if you don't feel like checking Fatwallet every other day. Plus, I don't know about the UK, but I found US XboxLive phone support to be the best I've ever had to deal with.

 

 

Regular HMDI cables don't even fit in the back of the Xbox 360, no, instead we must buy the official Microsoft one (I actually removed over-sized plastic casing  around the A/V cable so mine would fit).

 

Well, any HDMI cable will fit, just not at the same time as the regular AV cables. Though I agree, it's kind of dumb since it's not like splitting audio into a separate device is a super rare occurrence.

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Overall, it still boggles my mind they chose cable TV for the presentation when I think cable's slowly dying in favor of streaming services.

I think they did show this. They mentioned searching "Video on Demand", but I don't think they mentioned who they had as content providers. They did show Netflix and Hulu Plus at least (presumably also the windows store). I feel like at some point in the next couple years Xbox is going to make a big play to replace your cable provider with either an existing VoD service that's planning to expand, or one of their own; maybe as an open API that allows content providers to provide content and advertising themselves on some sort of "channel" system.

I find that concept really interesting as cable cutting becomes more prevalent. That could totally be wishful thinking, but the more I think about it the less unlikely it seems.
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Well, any HDMI cable will fit, just not at the same time as the regular AV cables. Though I agree, it's kind of dumb since it's not like splitting audio into a separate device is a super rare occurrence.

 

I guess I should have worded that whole point differently; the A/V cable that comes with an Xbox 360 is deliberately obstructive of standard cable designs.  

 

1. They've said single player games are fine and playable offline; internet verification is only needed to confirm the license for the game when you buy it and to verify that license intermittently (they've said every 24 hours in the past, but I feel like this is a moving target).

This doesn't change my issue with it.  It can only serve as a hindrance to paying customers.  How does it benefit us?  

 

The PS2 had something on the order of 75% market share. The other 25% was split by 3 consoles.

I meant pre-release (when in the design phase), and the way in which each machine would be designed to take the market, by being awesome for gaming, and not milking me for money through their vastly developed social network.  I think that Microsoft currently have enough customers to comfortably pull money making stunts, whereas the in the PS2 era, this may not have been so simple.

 

More than likely it has to do with the fact that a lot of people rarely/never use backwards compatibility.

 

Xbox 360 introduced the whole online profile/gamerscore/achievements etc to console gamers (not saying they were the first to do this, but that doesn't matter).  Backwards compatibility may fulfill the needs of the current generation more than before, where that is concerned.  I guess it won't matter to some people, but I hate to see a collection of games become useless.

 

If I had to guess they're using the steam model, in which case developers will see a good chunk of the profits. Obviously being a developer I'm ok with this.

From a consumer standpoint, those shops were rarely worth it anyway.

 

I have to disagree with this, because we are comparing these shops to what Microsoft offer in their services.  Today, I traded in a few games for NFS Hot Pursuit.  It cost £12.99.  To download from XB live, it costs £19.99.  I don't even have enough GB free to install it, unless I buy a bigger official Microsoft HD.  I could use an external hard drive, but then I'd have to format it, and it may only use up to something like 32GB.  The real shocker was that NFS MW was priced at £49.99 on XB live.  

 

See, my whole point is that it's not enough for Microsoft just to sell a console, but rather they design it so that only their own line of products work with it (short of your own loop holes and plastic casing removal), and charge you more money for them.  It's always been tolerable, but this game licensing and killing the trade in market, being unable to loan your game to a friend - what is that?!  Serious control measures, but why are they necessary ?

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They aren't killing the trade in market; you'll still be able to trade in your games to shops.

The precise details are still a bit sketchy on how this will work as there is a cost associated with it (for the shops to pay; you don't get charged the full game price for taking a second hand copy of a game home to play, despite what was reported) but current MS have only officially briefed retailers on it.

So, just to repeat, they are NOT killing the trade in market at all.

As to the loan thing, that might be a problem (although they still haven't given full details on that either) however in a world where you can't loan Steam based PC games, phone apps or DRM controlled TV shows and films (brought via something like iTunes) those who care about this issue might be in the minority as every day life people seem content with this arrangement.

(Yes, yes, I'm sure you've seen 'plenty' of people moan about this but chances are you are seeing this because of the bubble you live in friends and forums wise - outside of the tech-savvy areas of the internet the Xbox One launch has been apparently received well by many too.)
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outside of the tech-savvy areas of the internet the Xbox One launch has been apparently received well by many too

 

I'd love to hear it's good points.  I suppose many will reserve those opinions till after E3.

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From what I recall various sites have praised the interface, the social aspect and the tv integration - I'm sure there were other things as well but I don't have links to hand right now nor do I fancy going off to find them, I just recall they do exist as someone brought them up in another thread on another forum I use.
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From what I recall various sites have praised the interface, the social aspect and the tv integration - I'm sure there were other things as well but I don't have links to hand right now nor do I fancy going off to find them, I just recall they do exist as someone brought them up in another thread on another forum I use.

By coincidence, I read this just the other day...

http://kotaku.com/mainstream-media-reacts-to-the-xbox-one-509243303

Edited by ChaosEngine
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outside of the tech-savvy areas of the internet the Xbox One launch has been apparently received well by many too

 

I'd love to hear it's good points.  I suppose many will reserve those opinions till after E3.

The guy who does Francis uploaded an 'actual opinion' video after his Francis rage video that covers most of the ok points.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqgz6W1518Q

 

In general his point is the extra stuff doesn't really matter and is mostly nice to have, but it's going to come down to the games, most of which are being announced at E3. Worth a watch. He has a lot of the same opinions as people who really dislike the announcement, but comes to much more reasonable conclusions.

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Well, Microsoft just officially acknowledged all of the worst rumors of the One are true. Source.

The internet connection thing is absurd. There's no reason why on God's green earth they HAVE to do that. 

Microsoft just sold a lot of PS4's, methinks.

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Well, Microsoft just officially acknowledged all of the worst rumors of the One are true. Source.

The internet connection thing is absurd. There's no reason why on God's green earth they HAVE to do that. 

Microsoft just sold a lot of PS4's, methinks.

 

They HAVE to do that in order to get rid of physical media and still allow people to sell / trade games. I'm looking forward to not having to keep track of game discs anymore. This is one of the reasons I only buy PC games via Steam. No media, download and install whenever you want.

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Well, Microsoft just officially acknowledged all of the worst rumors of the One are true. Source.

The internet connection thing is absurd. There's no reason why on God's green earth they HAVE to do that. 

Microsoft just sold a lot of PS4's, methinks.

 

They HAVE to do that in order to get rid of physical media and still allow people to sell / trade games. I'm looking forward to not having to keep track of game discs anymore. This is one of the reasons I only buy PC games via Steam. No media, download and install whenever you want.

 

I am the opposite. I can keep track of all my CD, SD cards, cartridges. I still have my snes, n64, gamecube, xbox, xbox 360, and wii games in one area: my shelf. I love physical media, it needs to be in my hands. I don't want my whole life to depend on my internet connection. Its easy, insert media and play. Much faster than installing as well.

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They HAVE to do that in order to get rid of physical media and still allow people to sell / trade games. I'm looking forward to not having to keep track of game discs anymore. This is one of the reasons I only buy PC games via Steam. No media, download and install whenever you want.


What? No, you can still get rid of physical media and not have to have a console check for an internet connection every 24 hours. You can buy a game digitally, download it, and never have to go online for it to work again (unless its DRM requires it to). There is no reason why the Xbox One has to go online every 24 hours, and the "cloud gaming" excuse is ridiculous, not to mention the technology is still in its infancy and there's definitely going to be downed servers. Unless everyone has a Google Fiber connection, cloud gaming shouldn't even exist yet.

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What? No, you can still get rid of physical media and not have to have a console check for an internet connection every 24 hours. You can buy a game digitally, download it, and never have to go online for it to work again (unless its DRM requires it to). There is no reason why the Xbox One has to go online every 24 hours, and the "cloud gaming" excuse is ridiculous, not to mention the technology is still in its infancy and there's definitely going to be downed servers. Unless everyone has a Google Fiber connection, cloud gaming shouldn't even exist yet.

 

You somehow missed the part about being able to resell those games or give them to friends. You can also play them from other people's consoles by logging into your account. The only way to allow a single digital copy to run on multiple machines is to have those machines online and capable of checking in. Otherwise you could just log into your friend's Xbox, download all of your games, put it in offline mode and now you and your friend both have full copies of all of your games.

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I am the opposite. I can keep track of all my CD, SD cards, cartridges. I still have my snes, n64, gamecube, xbox, xbox 360, and wii games in one area: my shelf. I love physical media, it needs to be in my hands. I don't want my whole life to depend on my internet connection. Its easy, insert media and play. Much faster than installing as well.

 

Man... I'm definitely looking forward to having digital copies available for the same price on the same day as the physical release. I've lost probably half a dozen games due to kids scratching discs beyond recovery. Plus I hate having to deal with game store employees. No, I do NOT want to pre-order anything.

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Plenty of my friends like to trade games in for store credit, and essentially buy new ones with that credit.  That won't be possible anymore, and the shops' business will suffer for it.  You may not care, but it's Microsoft who'll be reaping what would have been their profits.  Does no one see this as a bit too greedy?

Have you ever been to Gamestop? Have you ever tried to buy a new game, only to have them try to push a "like new used game for $5 less" off on you? Gamestop does this because their profit margin on it is huge.

 

And do you know how much money the developer makes on each used sale? Zilch. Used games are exactly the same thing as piracy when it comes to developers making money.

 

Gamestop has for years been deliberately harming new sales by aggressively pushing used. Whereas the developer makes more money when there are no used games, who makes money on used games? Just Gamestop, which is a parasite that contributes nothing useful.

 

Meanwhile, on pc, you have Steam. Steam games are cheaper than console games and new games regularly go on firehouse sales. I've picked up six month old titles for $20 on Steam. You will never see that on consoles ATM, and that is specifically because of the used market.

 

This new system is much better for developers and it will be better for people who actually buy a lot of new games. It will be worse for people who mostly buy used games, but they may as well just go pirate their games anyway, for all they contribute to the useful parts of the industry. The only group that truly suffers here is Gamestop.

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BladeOfWraith, on 08 Jun 2013 - 13:36, said:

Olliepm, on 28 May 2013 - 13:06, said:
Plenty of my friends like to trade games in for store credit, and essentially buy new ones with that credit. That won't be possible anymore, and the shops' business will suffer for it. You may not care, but it's Microsoft who'll be reaping what would have been their profits. Does no one see this as a bit too greedy?

Have you ever been to Gamestop? Have you ever tried to buy a new game, only to have them try to push a "like new used game for $5 less" off on you? Gamestop does this because their profit margin on it is huge.

not sure where you live, but the gamestop's around me(read 2 of them), have never pushed used copys on me. maybe the guys behind the counter at yours are more invested in the stores success?
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You somehow missed the part about being able to resell those games or give them to friends. You can also play them from other people's consoles by logging into your account. The only way to allow a single digital copy to run on multiple machines is to have those machines online and capable of checking in. Otherwise you could just log into your friend's Xbox, download all of your games, put it in offline mode and now you and your friend both have full copies of all of your games.

 

That's easily remedied by putting a lock or time limit on the borrowed game. If they're offline and past the limit, the game is no longer accessible. If there's a lock, then it can only be unlocked if they're online. Or some combination of the two.

 

The argument for Online DRM is just not cutting it.

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not sure where you live, but the gamestop's around me(read 2 of them), have never pushed used copys on me. maybe the guys behind the counter at yours are more invested in the stores success?

Everywhere I've lived it's been like this. I think that is how it is at most Gamestop locations. That is [url=http://kotaku.com/5294663/gamestop-easing-off-on-used-games-push]official company policy[/url]. They did revise it recently to preclude games for the first 60 days after launch, but once it hits 61 days, every time a customer tries to buy a new game, if there is a used copy available the employee is supposed to offer the used game.
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