Put down the sparkling water or we'll shoot!

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37 comments, last by Koobazaur 10 years, 9 months ago
Well, if you want more details you can throw "Elizabeth Daly" into your favorite search engine for news sites. From this article it seems that the first person to approach was actually the woman. This article contains the interesting detail that the women were on edge after having just attended a "Take Back the Night" vigil where they listened to the stories of several sexual assault victims before hand.
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Well, if you want more details you can throw "Elizabeth Daly" into your favorite search engine for news sites. From this article it seems that the first person to approach was actually the woman. This article contains the interesting detail that the women were on edge after having just attended a "Take Back the Night" vigil where they listened to the stories of several sexual assault victims before hand.

Interesting. I've seen the video linked before, but I didn't realize is was the same ABC idiots as in this story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pbzUH90Sm0E

Something tells me his charges won't be dropped...

The only reason you would draw an anti-personnel weapon such as those carried by the police or gangsters is that you are threatening to kill someone. As in impose the death penalty. If you do not intend to invoke the death penalty for, say, disobeying an order then there isn't much threat and there isn't any point to drawing the weapon... after all, it could go off accidentally and kill someone.

So, the question is, why do people think the death penalty is appropriate for such a situation? Perhaps it's time for those we appoint to administer order to reconsider their values.

Stephen M. Webb
Professional Free Software Developer

Well, ATF = looks more like pimp than cop is a fair assumption. Whether or not there was maybe a woman also is allegoric. The victim of the assault may very well not have seen the woman.

Also, being "approached in a law-enforcement manner" by unknown people when you have not done anything wrong is a very strong indicator of being assaulted. It doesn't matter who was running or not, it's the same thing to the victim.

This is even more true insofar as selling the alleged crime was not in any way plausible to her.

Not only had she not done anything wrong, but more: The alleged "beer" (water) may be sold freely in Virginia without special regulations (unless beer in Virginia has more than 14% of alcohol?). Further, the young woman, being 20 years of age is indistinguishable from a 21 year old without having controlled her ID. This is the shopkeeper's duty, and it's normally done in a most pedantic manner. Heck, last time I've been in The Land of The Free, I was 38 years old and they still asked for an ID so I could buy beer.

But even assuming definite knowledge that said woman was under age, and if she was really carrying beer, there was no reason to approach (or threaten, or arrest) her, as the state of Virginia explicitly allows underage people to buy, possess (and consume) alcohol

a) as a guest in a private residence

b) for delivery, by order of their parents or guardians.

Those ATF hounds had no way of knowing whether the woman was or wasn't 21, and they had no way of knowing whether her parents had sent her to buy alcohol -- even under the assumption that the water was really beer. This means that no matter what the agents assumed or believed or wished for, the benefit of doubt applies.

There was absolutely no justification for even talking to her (other than maybe wishing her a good day).

Insofar, the entire "operation" was just bullshit, and indeed an assault on an innocent person who had every right to believe that she was being robbed, mugged, raped, and cut to pieces in a dark cellar. No more and no less.


The lack of critical thinking in this thread is frankly shocking from a group of people who are apparently interested in a field where critical thinking is a key skill.

You're right in that most people here (including me) are filling in the blanks with our expectations of the cops, especially the kind you find in these specialized enforcement agencies (often they have been run out of conventional police departments). I am content with the assumptions that paint the cops in a bad light, because they are consistent with my direct experience. I am also content with assuming much about the ~20 year old sorority girls, though I could probably use a refresher course...

The Four Horsemen of Happiness have left.

Yeah, you know what... clearly this thread is nothing more than a 'police are bad and do things for bad reasons' jerk off so I'm out...

I'm never moving to the USA, you guys have SERIOUS social issues over there that I don't want to touch with someone elses 80ft barge poll...

Yeah, you know what... clearly this thread is nothing more than a 'police are bad and do things for bad reasons' jerk off so I'm out...

I'm never moving to the USA, you guys have SERIOUS social issues over there that I don't want to touch with someone elses 80ft barge poll...

This isn't really the case. We have LEO agencies that do the right thing in the vast majority of cases, but nobody gives two shits for cops that do the right thing so it never gets reported. And we have a segment of society that can be summed up by the NWA lyrics of the song "Fuck The Police." In this age of media sensationalism, that leads to pretty much one thing: threads like this. The vast majority of people aren't that polarized.

Yeah, you know what... clearly this thread is nothing more than a 'police are bad and do things for bad reasons' jerk off so I'm out...

Seriously now? It was you who complained about lack of critical thinking, remember. So I've presented you with something that's in my opinion "critical enough" insofar as critical thinking is exactly what demonstrably lacked with the police in this case.

Given the laws of the state they live in (which you may assume the police should know!) they had no base to assume that what the woman was doing was wrong or against the law in any way. In a state which pretends being a constitutional state, people are innocent until there is proof (or at least a stong appearance) of guilt.

To the best of their knowledge and to all appearances, without any evidence or appearance of a felony, all this woman did was arguably and plausibly in perfect conformance with the law (coming out of a shop an going to her car).

Approaching and stopping the woman was therefore indiscriminate harrassment.

So now that I've given you a good argument that the "police screwed up" opinion is not at all unfounded, you just turn around and say "I'm out".

I have a hard time blaming either side. Jumpy girls panic when approached by an unusual number of police officers, police officers take unexpected panic as a sign that something is more wrong than they thought, and since in their line of work they're used to dealing with evasive and violent people, they act appropriately for those people.

But who knows, maybe the Virginia Alcohol Beverage Control (it's not the ATF, per the articles) is institutionally messed up.


I'm never moving to the USA, you guys have SERIOUS social issues over there that I don't want to touch with someone elses 80ft barge poll...

Imagine the ire if you were an American saying that about literally any other place ever. It's a big, complicated place all up in here, just like everywhere else.

-Mark the Artist

Digital Art and Technical Design
Developer Journal

Yeah, you know what... clearly this thread is nothing more than a 'police are bad and do things for bad reasons' jerk off so I'm out...

I'm never moving to the USA, you guys have SERIOUS social issues over there that I don't want to touch with someone elses 80ft barge poll...

Every place has it's own set of issues. These things make the news, but the vast majority of people who never have serious interactions with the police are clearly not newsworthy. Considering the size and population of the US, of course it's going to look like everything is fucked up from a news perspective.

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