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JLW

Retro turn-based RPG, good indie idea?

47 posts in this topic

Let's ease off the hostility

 

It's worth noting that I'm returning fire here. Shooting more accurately doesn't change that.

 

D&D turns can take an hour. When players are slow doing math, or have several things they need to do per turn, it can very well take an hour. I've witnessed it. Usually, though, with those situations it is about 15 minutes.

 

Funny, considering I've played over 1,000 hours of D&D and never seen a turn take more than ten minutes. Although there have been a few that certainly felt like an hour, I was looking at the clock a lot during those times (as one tends to do when waiting) and it wasn't much longer than a normal turn. Of course, it's entirely possible my group just played fast, because of my thousand hours over eight hundred were with the same five others.

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Funny, considering I've played over 1,000 hours of D&D and never seen a turn take more than ten minutes. Although there have been a few that certainly felt like an hour, I was looking at the clock a lot during those times (as one tends to do when waiting) and it wasn't much longer than a normal turn. Of course, it's entirely possible my group just played fast, because of my thousand hours over eight hundred were with the same five others.

 

It's based on the individuals involved. About a minute or so per player is what I'm used to. The long 15 minute turns are when people are controlling several different monsters at once.

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It's based on the individuals involved. About a minute or so per player is what I'm used to. The long 15 minute turns are when people are controlling several different monsters at once.

I think this thread has been derailed enough, don't you?

On topic:
Nobody presented a single theory on any of the symbols' imagery? That makes me a bit sad.
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Soldier: A dead child being eaten by a dog, lying inside a black, heart-shaped box held by an iron hand.

Warrior: A child bearing a sword, facing a threshold with a large horned shadow coming through it.

Martial artist: A child, hand up, with a velvet-gloved, iron hand guiding their wrist.

Guardian: A child clutching a heart-shaped box to their chest. Several adults are visible through the box's lid.

Lawman/Lawwoman: A dead child being beaten with an iron fist.

Scout: A child, in a tree, with a looking glass.

Bard: A child with a lute, writing with a quill upon parchment.

Ranger: A child, arm outstretched and a bird landing upon it.

Rogue: A child hiding behind a counter holding a knife and a loaf of bread, before a threshold with a large horned shadow standing in it.

Mystic: A blind child holding a hand of cards: The World, The Fool, The Tower, The Lovers and The Devil.

Savant: A child sitting on a chair, reading a book by candlelight.

Artisan: A child sitting at a desk, sketching.

Noble: A child wearing a black coat, with a red right hand clutching green paper to their abdomen, fingers in their coat.

Worker: A child, holding a pickaxe, being struck with a whip.

Shaman: A child sitting against a tree watching a dog, while the dog watches an owl and the owl watches the child.

Priest/Priestess: A pile of burning books and an iron fist beating a dead child with a rod.

Physician: A headless child kneeling next to a beheaded adult, trying to put the adult's head back on.

Wizard/Witch: A child wearing goggles, holding a vial and a quill.

Sorcerer/Sorceress: A child, arms outstretched like wings, flying through the sky.

Mage: A child with a looking glass, sitting on the crescent moon.

If nobody can figure this out in three days, I'll explain the lot of them. Don't be afraid to spitball.

 

Before I comment on these, can you elaborate on the solider, the lawman/woman, the priest/priestess, and the physician?

 

The physician I think I understand, but I'm trying to understand your logic.

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Before I comment on these, can you elaborate on the solider, the lawman/woman, the priest/priestess, and the physician?

 

The physician I think I understand, but I'm trying to understand your logic.

 

 

If you're concerned about the dead children, keep in mind that it is a metaphor. What I can say is the the child in each represents the self. They are that person's individuality, free will and humanity, everything that makes them a person. Any adults present collectively represent other people. The iron hand present in all of these... really doesn't need an explanation, does it? It's an iron hand, it's a stock metaphor. Since it's subtle, I can say the rod represents religion (there's a biblical basis for using a rod to represent religion) and that the heart-shaped boxes represent the "heart" or "soul." I can also say that "metaphor A is metaphor A." If something represents one thing in one symbol, it represents the same thing in all of them.

 

From this, you should be able to figure the rest out.

Edited by Jeremy Williams
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I'm not concerned about the children being dead, but why the solider is a child in a box being eaten and the priest/priestess is beating a child. How do these represent the classes? The rod and burning books, I get. The iron hand and the heart-shaped box I get. Why is the lawman/woman beating a child? Are you taking a particular view on each of these? Law keeping individuals down, religion attacking individuals, soldiers just being fed to the dogs?

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I'm not concerned about the children being dead, but why the solider is a child in a box being eaten and the priest/priestess is beating a child. How do these represent the classes? The rod and burning books, I get. The iron hand and the heart-shaped box I get. Why is the lawman/woman beating a child? Are you taking a particular view on each of these? Law keeping individuals down, religion attacking individuals, soldiers just being fed to the dogs?

 

You missed the metaphor completely. The child IS the person with the class. That is their "self." The priest/priestess isn't beating a child, the priest/priestess is being beaten. Same for the lawman/lawwoman and the soldier. The child represents the "self", so the child being dead means that their "self" has been lost. The circumstances are showing what is responsible and why it is happening.

 

And the dog eating the child is another metaphor. The self is dead, and its death is strengthening the psychological aspect this dog represents.

 

And yeah, burning books are a pretty stock metaphor as well, aren't they?

Edited by Jeremy Williams
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I mis-worded what I meant.

 

Why is the priest/priestess religion beating the class/self/character/player?

 

Why is the soldier, the child, dead, if the class should be alive? You say the self is dead and this death is strengthening the psychological aspect the dog represents, but shouldn't this symbol represent the self, the child, instead of the dog? This one seems to be expressing the defeat of the self. I can see the soldier being the one that is holding up the heart-shaped box, but if the class is the child, then it isn't the soldier holding up the box.

 

Why is the lawman/woman being beaten if the child is the class?

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I mis-worded what I meant.

 

Why is the priest/priestess religion beating the class/self/character/player?

 

Why is the soldier, the child, dead, if the class should be alive? You say the self is dead and this death is strengthening the psychological aspect the dog represents, but shouldn't this symbol represent the self, the child, instead of the dog? This one seems to be expressing the defeat of the self. I can see the soldier being the one that is holding up the heart-shaped box, but if the class is the child, then it isn't the soldier holding up the box.

 

Why is the lawman/woman being beaten if the child is the class?

 

The child is part of the individual, not the class. The child being dead simply means that their sense of self is lost. They've lost their individuality, their free will or their humanity. The lawman/lawwoman has lost themselves directly due to the law's conscious effort to break them. Physically, they are fine. Psychologically, not so much. The priest/priestess has lost themselves to their religion, which is an instrument of the law. They too are physically unharmed, but they are no longer an individual. The soldier is the most telling, as the psychological aspect represented by the dog is the persona. The law has their soul in the palm of its hand, suggesting this is the law's will that they lose their sense of self to strengthen their persona. (This is actually the primary purpose of military training, to break down a recruit and rebuild them into the soldier persona, an expendable part of an expendable unit.)

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The child is part of the individual, not the class. The child being dead simply means that their sense of self is lost. They've lost their individuality, their free will or their humanity. The lawman/lawwoman has lost themselves directly due to the law's conscious effort to break them. Physically, they are fine. Psychologically, not so much. The priest/priestess has lost themselves to their religion, which is an instrument of the law. They too are physically unharmed, but they are no longer an individual. The soldier is the most telling, as the psychological aspect represented by the dog is the persona. The law has their soul in the palm of its hand, suggesting this is the law's will that they lose their sense of self to strengthen their persona. (This is actually the primary purpose of military training, to break down a recruit and rebuild them into the soldier persona, an expendable part of an expendable unit.)

 

Now your classes all make sense. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you mentioned potentially needing to explain these to others. I wasn't sure about your train of thought with these, so maybe finding some way to explain some of these in game? Perhaps when letting someone pick a class, add a little bit of the description that helps the player understand the metaphor?

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Now your classes all make sense.

 

Really? Because I still think the shaman class is a bit... esoteric, the noble relies on knowledge of '90s pop culture and 18th-19th century French history in the same image, and, of course, some knowledge of tarot's use in fortune telling would help with the mystic's hand. And what of the warrior and rogue? They've barely been explained at all.

 

Although I already figured the physician projecting would be pretty easy.

 

 

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you mentioned potentially needing to explain these to others. I wasn't sure about your train of thought with these, so maybe finding some way to explain some of these in game? Perhaps when letting someone pick a class, add a little bit of the description that helps the player understand the metaphor?

 

No, I think I'd prefer to let the interested players toss it around in their heads. Although the class descriptions might provide a few hints, and the insanity traits six of these classes possess might give a bit of insight. (Warriors are paranoid, shamans are narcissistic, physicians have hero complexes, priests are obsessive compulsive, savants are simply obsessive and bards are manic depressive.)

Edited by Jeremy Williams
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Really? Because I still think the shaman class is a bit... esoteric, the noble relies on knowledge of '90s pop culture and French history in the same image, and, of course, some knowledge of tarot's use in fortune telling would help with the mystic's hand. And what of the warrior and rogue?

 

The shaman I understood a bit. The noble I looked at as some high official from the description, an important person. Tarot cards are fairly recognizable but not necessarily the individual cards. A mystic is occasionally portrayed as blind, so that does help. The rogue was fine. A thief was the assumed class from the description, which is sometimes a name given to a rogue. The warrior seems fairly straight forward, someone wielding a weapon, facing an enemy.

 


No, I think I'd prefer to let the interested players toss it around in their heads. I mean, the class descriptions might provide a few hints, and the insanity traits six of these classes possess might give a bit of insight. (Warriors are paranoid, shamans are narcissistic, physicians have hero complexes, priests are obsessive compulsive, savants are simply obsessive and bards are manic depressive.)

I didn't mean you needed to explain each one to the player but providing some hints to the direction your metaphors go would help.

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The mystic's self being blind represents a lack of natural perception, it's their motivation. They can't understand things themselves, so they turn to outside sources. The individual cards are important as well.

For the noble, look to Napolean Bonaparte and the song "Red Right Hand" by Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds.

As for the warrior and rogue, there's a lot more shown there. The horned shadow represents the same thing for both, their weapons and the context also matter.

For the shaman, it's just the owl that's missing there. It represents awareness, the dog is their persona and the child is still their self.
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Have you decided if you plan to follow through and make this game?

Yes, we're going to do it. Why?

Edit:

I'll be adding more info about the game soon. Think it should be here or in another thread?
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Yes, we're going to do it. Why?

I'd be interested to see the result.

 


I'll be adding more info about the game soon. Think it should be here or in another thread?

Create a "Your Announcements" thread and keep adding to it. That seems to be the going trend.

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I'd be interested to see the result.


That's nice to hear.
 

Create a "Your Announcements" thread and keep adding to it. That seems to be the going trend.


I'll do that, then. I'll link to it through here once it's up.
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Oh cool another person develop retro turn based RPGs! I've been working on a new engine engine lately. Fancy chatting Jeremy?

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I started making "retro turn-based RPG" thinking there is a shortage of these. But when I received comments (after posting on RPG sites/forums) I was very disappointed. No one really needs a new RPG, they don't say "yes! finally someone is making a retro RPG, we were waiting for it for ages" instead they ask "how it's different from thousands of RPGs made recently"? In retrospection, I regret starting that project, I would do much better focusing on another genre.

 

You probably could do it, but only if it's a very high quality (preferably AAA). But you won't get any novelity points for making retro RPGs, it seems the market is saturated (don't ask how, I don't see all these new RPGs being made, hust judging from the response of RPG fans).

Edited by Acharis
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I started making "retro turn-based RPG" thinking there is a shortage of these. But when I received comments (after posting on RPG sites/forums) I was very disappointed. No one really needs a new RPG, they don't say "yes! finally someone is making a retro RPG, we were waiting for it for ages" instead they ask "how it's different from thousands of RPGs made recently"? In retrospection, I regret starting that project, I would do much better focusing on another genre.

 

You probably could do it, but only if it's a very high quality (preferably AAA). But you won't get any novelity points for making retro RPGs, it seems the market is saturated (don't ask how, I don't see all these new RPGs being made, hust judging from the response of RPG fans).

 

Unfortunatley Acharis has a point. Thanks to RPG Maker, so many people can churn out "average" RPGs. The only way to get people into your RPG is to make it different. For instance, in my RPG we're realizing what it means to be a "Fantasy" game. So many games have lost their way but we're doing our best to make it feel like a strange new world!

 

The point is, you need some sort of hook. A hook that makes them think "I should check it out!". For Rain-Slick, it was the fact it is a Penny Arcade game. For KEMCO, they do old fashioned RPGs. For my series Legena, we push the controversial boundries (within reason). Like I said, you need a hook to get the marketing. And that's how you get people to play your game.

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I'll save time and respond to all of you at once. You guys are thinking about the wrong kind of game. This really can't be helped because our industry doesn't have proper genres and there is no unambiguous term I can use, but if you had read further in you'd know that I am not talking about a "Final Fantasy" style RPG. This game plays like a turn-based strategy, and is controlled from a map screen, not a menu. Think "Fallout" or "Temple of Elemental Evil." This is not the kind of cookie-cutter nonsense you produce with RPG maker, it's not even the same genre, and it really makes me wish our industry had proper genre names so we could avoid confusion like this.

Edited by Jeremy Williams
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it's not even the same genre, and it really makes me wish our industry had proper genre names so we could avoid confusion like this.
It's called western RPG and the Final Fantasy thing is jRPG.

 

And yes, I was referring to a strict western RPG that is completely impossible to do in the RPG maker. And I was reaching to sites that don't even allow talking about jRPG. There was no difference, they didn't seem thrilled at all, they had enough of the western RPGs already and wanted to know what's uniques from all the other westerm RPGs :)

 

What I'm saying is, you won't get any novelity points for making a full blown western RPG that can't be done in any RPG maker. That alone is not enough to interest anyone... You need to outbeat other western RPGs. There is no shortage (again, don't ask why, I don't get it either since I can't recall that many western RPGs being made; still, that's what those hardcore players said...)

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it's not even the same genre, and it really makes me wish our industry had proper genre names so we could avoid confusion like this.
It's called western RPG and the Final Fantasy thing is jRPG.

 

And yes, I was referring to a strict western RPG that is completely impossible to do in the RPG maker. And I was reaching to sites that don't even allow talking about jRPG. There was no difference, they didn't seem thrilled at all, they had enough of the western RPGs already and wanted to know what's uniques from all the other westerm RPGs smile.png

 

What I'm saying is, you won't get any novelity points for making a full blown western RPG that can't be done in any RPG maker. That alone is not enough to interest anyone... You need to outbeat other western RPGs. There is no shortage (again, don't ask why, I don't get it either since I can't recall that many western RPGs being made; still, that's what those hardcore players said...)

 

I am pretty certain that either you or they are confused as to what kind of RPG I am describing. Go take a look at Fallout (1 or 2) for a good example of the genre. Even if you understand what I'm referring to, they sure as hell didn't. The genre is non-existent today and even at its height was still one of the smallest genres in the industry, so there's no way in hell there are a lot being put out.

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