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Chirieac

Open world 3D game without a specific game engine

43 posts in this topic

 

imo youre like diver in stupidity (no offence) - iMO it is totally unimportant if you will try to build a big game without engine, with engine, or with open source engine, because you will do nothing (you will not do even an one thousand part of nothing) [...]  the reality is your keyboard and simple game you will probably never do (I am working hard for years to make some decent/fine small game)

Please let me borrow your crystal ball sometime...

 

Anyway, thank you for your help everyone. I will definitely think more about using an open-source game engine instead of a commercial one. Good luck with your projects!

 

 

It is not from crystall ball but it comes from the notice that you 

like talking crazy about making a big game instead of doing

simple one - So I think youre not interested in reality and you just like crazy dream talking.

Edited by fir
-2

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It is not from crystall bal but it comes from the notice that you 
like talking crazy about making a big game instead of doing
simple one - So I think youre not interested in reality and you just like crazy dream talking.

I didn't said I want to make a big game. Maybe you should pay more attention to what I've said.

Also, just because I'm considering to make a game that seems big, doesn't mean I want to do it now from the start and I didn't asked how to do it.

 

Do I really said crazy things in my posts? What's wrong with dreaming? Everything starts with a dream.

 

I've said:

"Is it possible for an average guy to learn what it needs to learn in order to create a beautiful game without an existing game engine? A game that could look almost as beautiful as CryEngine/Unigine capabilities? Speaking just in terms of technology, not the art content that contribute to the beauty.

Is it possible with so many resources/knowledge available these days on the internet?"

 

I came here asking for good advice to help me to make a good decision before I even begin. I came here to find what's possible and what not. To find why, how hard and how much time could it take.

Some users were kind to push me in the right direction suggesting to use open-source engines if I do not like the commercial ones. They explained to me why is a good idea and I understood. I've asked what involves in being able to use them and to modify them and I've got my answers.

 

So, I have all I need now, thanks!

Edited by Chirieac
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It is not from crystall bal but it comes from the notice that you 
like talking crazy about making a big game instead of doing
simple one - So I think youre not interested in reality and you just like crazy dream talking.

I didn't said I want to make a big game. Maybe you should pay more attention to what I've said.

Also, just because I'm considering to make a game that seems big, doesn't mean I want to do it now from the start and I didn't asked how to do it.

 

Do I really said crazy things in my posts? What's wrong with dreaming? Everything starts with a dream.

 

I've said:

"Is it possible for an average guy to learn what it needs to learn in order to create a beautiful game without an existing game engine? A game that could look almost as beautiful as CryEngine/Unigine capabilities? Speaking just in terms of technology, not the art content that contribute to the beauty.

Is it possible with so many resources/knowledge available these days on the internet?"

 

 

 

 

 

If not a big game what is this :

 

"I've decided that I want to create my own open world 3D game. I want to do this in my own free time, for my own peace of mind. Is not something that I would want to sell to make money. The project needs to be more than just a game. It needs to showcase the beauty of my country, its landscape, its architecture and lost traditions. The world needs to be big (maybe 100km x 70km) and beautiful."

 

the most obscure point in yr attitude is why you do not

 answer to the point of making a small game first (some

like 2d game ?) This is most crazy to me. Could you answer to that?

 

IMO this is most revelant advice - make small game,learn some basic stuff. You seem to ignore such advice and this is really quite dumb. So that if a reason why i say that it seems that you just wanna live in a world of crazy dreams (and talking bullshits)  not learn to code.

Edited by fir
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Fir the word you just used are unacceptable.

 

Also the OP got his answers. He is satisfied with the advices he got. Lay down the arms(and bad language).

 

Be friendly and civilized, please.

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If you just want to make an open world for the sake of it, then just buy an existing open-world game with modding support (Fallout 3, Arma 3, etc), and use it's tools and engine to make your world.
As a beginner, modding will be far easier than trying to either work from scratch or work with a raw engine without a base game/content on it already.

By picking an existing game that closely resembles the kind you'd like to make, then that part is mostly done, and you can just focus on building your world.
If the setting are similar, then you can also borrow some of the game's art assets instead of making all the art from scratch.


However, do you want to be a programmer or a content creator (artist, level designer)?
In a real games company, those are 3 different roles, because ideally each of those people will have a decade of practice in their field. It's not economical to train someone in programming for a decade and then have them work on buildings/architecture/landscape art ;)

If you want to just focus on the landscapes and cities, then make that your main goal, and de-emphasis any tech/gameplay programming tasks. Again, simply picking up proven tech/gamplay (in the form of a good SDK or appropriate mod tools) is a very valid platform to work from.
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Fir the word you just used are unacceptable.

 

Also the OP got his answers. He is satisfied with the advices he got. Lay down the arms(and bad language).

 

Be friendly and civilized, please.

 

I am quite friendly, Do not know about which word you are saying but probably the dumb - i had to chose between crazy/insane/dumb (got somewhat weak english) and imo the word dumb is just most appriopriate - The approach to work on big 3d learning big open source engine etc without just learning the basics first is insane/dumb. Also this choices/conclusions of original asker are crazy - To clearly state it imo ist most constructive

 

I find good the answers if he would like to see some game

 he should focus on drawing content only but it seem obvious that he wont do much here to, so it all is just insane talking, what else to say

Edited by fir
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^ crazy/insane/dumb are all insulting words in English.

 

In polite conversation it would be better to use a more descriptive word, such as "unwise", "based on an uninformed viewpoint", "foolish" (although that might be too close to calling them a "fool", which again might be insulting).

In any case, it's better to describe the person's actions or choices rather than the person themselves. "Your plan is foolish" is much less of an insult to "You are a fool".

 

Unwise would be appriopriate to something that is unwise,

not dumb and insane. You are not reading carefully I do not find the pleasure in calling the asker insane but was saying that the approach to want to do something advanced without learning the basics is terribly (simply) crazy. (after all it is also getting boring somewhat, and not on technical topic, so do not matter)

Edited by fir
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I'll put it this way: 6 months of hard-core coding in C++ won't get you as far as like a week of scripting in Unity.

 

That said, there is value in doing what's been done before and learning how everything works. I highly recommend the book Game Coding Complete, if you want a breakdown of a lot of what goes into making a game engine. If what you want to do is just build something for the sake of building it and learning how to do it, doing it all from scratch can be fun! Being able to say "I wrote every part of this" is really satisfying.

 

If your goal is to make a product that eventually gets released, you really ought to just use a game engine. If you want something to do for fun as a hobby, go crazy with learning all of the lower-level stuff that goes on in a game! Though, even if you want to build your own "engine," I'd recommend working with other ones a bit just to see how they work and to get some ideas on how you might structure things.

 

In any case, the scope of your project idea is way too big as-is for something you would want to do alone. The content alone would take a loooong time, let alone the programming. Start smaller and work your way up from there as you build your skills. Given enough time and practice, you could conceivably achieve some cool results, but obviously whatever you make won't be able to compete with something that had dozens of people with expert knowledge working for years. If nothing else, build small tech demos before tackling a big project; 3D is hard.

 

Anyway, the only way to really appreciate the scope of work that goes into existing game engines is to try and do it yourself. Play around with different existing ones, and play around with implementing some of the concepts yourself. You may find yourself thinking "man, this is absurdly difficult and boring, I'm just going to use Unity," or you may find yourself saying "wow, this is awesome! I love graphics programming!". The only way to know what you'll like is to try it out and see.

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In any case, the scope of your project idea is way too big as-is for something you would want to do alone. The content alone would take a loooong time, let alone the programming. Start smaller and work your way up from there as you build your skills. Given enough time and practice, you could conceivably achieve some cool results, but obviously whatever you make won't be able to compete with something that had dozens of people with expert knowledge working for years. If nothing else, build small tech demos before tackling a big project; 3D is hard.

I will not be alone for the entire process, but for now I will be the only programmer. In terms of the actual content I will receive help.

I'm planning to start small of course, I will not jump directly into this project. But, this game of mine is my final goal and I needed to find out what path should I follow to get there.

 

If I want to build a game engine myself, even if I could use many existing libraries, I will still need to learn many many things in order to do that.

If I decide to use an open source engine, maybe I do not need to learn as many things like DirectX, but I will need the 3D math and strong programming/C++ skills.

If I decide to use an existing engine, I do not need to learn the low-level stuff, maybe not even C++.

 

So, I've talked about such a big game/project because that's my destination and I wanted to find the path to it. From what I understand there are those 3 options and depending on what I choose my learning path would be different. I'm here to see in what direction should I make the first step.

Edited by Chirieac
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On-topic: Use an open-source engine (some of the bests were already presented by the others) and make your dream come true. There is no point on making everything from scratch.

As you can see there are people around here that spent some years to do what they wanted to do and they did it (finished it). Good luck, "Superman".

 

 

Off-topic: Dear Fir, I can see where you're frustration comes from: "(I am working hard for years to make some decent/fine small game)". From how you're writing I understand why you talk like that. If you can't do it, that doesn't mean the others can't even try. And no, you are not "quite friendly".

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If I decide to use an existing engine, I do not need to learn the low-level stuff, maybe not even C++.

You will still need a programming language. C++ is as good as any.

 

What I suggest you do is evaluate some of your options. Dont worry if these are not the exact technologies you want to try. This is research at this stage.

 

Try building a simple cube platform jumper using the following tech.

 

1) Irrlicht - To try out a basic open-source 3D engine (use Ogre 3D if you prefer)

2) OpenGL - Have a look at implementing what you have just created in Irrlicht without using a graphics API directly (use DirectX if you prefer)

3) UDK - Try out a commercial engine (use Unity 3D if you prefer)

 

Once you have implemented all of them. Run them all and decide which one you have the most enthusiasm to extend and use to implement your next project.

 

:)

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If I decide to use an existing engine, I do not need to learn the low-level stuff, maybe not even C++.

You will still need a programming language. C++ is as good as any.
 
What I suggest you do is evaluate some of your options. Dont worry if these are not the exact technologies you want to try. This is research at this stage.
 
Try building a simple cube platform jumper using the following tech.
 
1) Irrlicht - To try out a basic open-source 3D engine (use Ogre 3D if you prefer)
2) OpenGL - Have a look at implementing what you have just created in Irrlicht without using a graphics API directly (use DirectX if you prefer)
3) UDK - Try out a commercial engine (use Unity 3D if you prefer)
 
Once you have implemented all of them. Run them all and decide which one you have the most enthusiasm to extend and use to implement your next project.
 
smile.png

 


Yes, I know I still need a programming language, but I was referring to Unity that uses C# which is considered a more high-level language than C++. Of course, Unity offers the possibility to write plugins using C++, but it's not necessarily needed.

 

Your idea with "simple cube platform jumper" is very good to test all options, thanks. I have been playing around in Unity for a while and with it I think that will definitely be pretty quick to do.

 

First, I will start to learn the necessary math and intermediate/advanced C++ programming. No matter what option I will choose, these 2 will definitely be needed I think.

After I have some good C++ and 3D math knowledge, I think I will try and play around with an open-source 3D engine and with DirectX. After a year (maximum) I'll try to really decide what I want to do/use.

Meanwhile maybe UDK will get an update to Unreal Engine 4. If that happens, UDK will have a very high chance to be my choice for an engine, instead of using open-source or writing it myself.

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If someone will want to create a 3D game engine for learning purposes, how much time should he spend on it?

I think a good answer could be until he touched all areas and have a basic working prototype. But, maybe he is not able to create a basic prototype in a decent amount of time and he should quit. When exactly should he quit because would be the best decision to take and not because of the overwhelming of the hard work?

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It's hard to say when one should quit.

The best times to quit are:

  1. Right from the start; or
  2. When you admit you can't do it.

If you started and realized it was way harder or tedious and that it would not add that much to your learning, well, there's no reason to keep on doing it.

If you, later on, end up stuck for some time and you decide it is not for you, be it due to a initial big design flaw or maybe some hard to fix problems, you can consider quitting on this and or restarting.

But I am one of those who tries not to quit something I started, even if it means restarting it from scratch.

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Now, I know it's hard and takes time and the advice is not do it and I understand why. But, is that written in stone? I mean, there is really no reason not to do a 3D game without an existing game engine? Is the knowledge present for everyone willing to learn or you need to be really smart?

 

 

Yes, obviously you need to be smart since you want to do everything alone. The knowledge is out there but you still need to interpret it correctly, implement it and let it function together. Engines, libraries, IDE and sdk's are simply tools to help you out with this, some more flexible then others. Off course you can create a game from scratch with a language like C++ but have you asked yourself "why do i want to do this?". You could also solder your own computer, use 8 big switches to insert the bits and bytes and start making your game from there.

The tools out there are to help you and speed up your workflow. There are no games being made anymore completely from scratch, AAA+ developers all use libraries and tweak there old engine here and there. So ask yourself why you want to build from scratch, put that reasoning in here and people here can break it down for you, maybe even pick a fitting engine for you.

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The tools out there are to help you and speed up your workflow. There are no games being made anymore completely from scratch, AAA+ developers all use libraries and tweak there old engine here and there. So ask yourself why you want to build from scratch, put that reasoning in here and people here can break it down for you, maybe even pick a fitting engine for you.

I didn't said I want to build the game completely from scratch, but just without an existing/commercial engine. Many libraries can be used, like physics engine, rendering engine (Ogre3D) and so on.

Why would I want to build a game without an existing engine or using an open-source one instead of the commercial ones? Because of the control I'll get and because some of them are too expensive.

For example, the best one for me is Unigine Engine because it supports very big worlds because of its double-precision coordinate system. But I can't afford it.

Next one could be CryEngine SDK because of its beautiful outdoor scenes, but because of its authentication requirement I do not like it. From what I know there is no clear license for it also, so why can I trust that? I've saw too many valid complaints for it.

The third one could be UDK, but the one based on Unreal Engine 4 which is not here yet.

My last choice could be Unity, but I do not like it because is too generalized and they seems to focus more on what the community want, like mobile development for now. The Unity price is cheap, but you'll have to buy a lot of tools to be able to make what you want and that could become expensive. Tools like roads maker, interactive water and so on. In no time you'll get too dependent on other people. Yes, you could write the tools yourself, but how could you do that if you never got the advanced knowledge and experience?
 

If I would want to make many types of games and that I would want to make money from them I will use an existing commercial engine for sure. But, as I've said, my only goal is to create only one game and improve it as much as I can. So, if I'm planning to invest many years into this project, I want to be able to have as much control on it as I can.

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The knowledge is out there but you still need to interpret it correctly, implement it and let it function together.

To be honest that's the answer I really wanted to get when I've started the topic, thanks.

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