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Shane C

Religious experiences

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HappyCoder    5052
I do agree that many horrible things have been done in religious organizations, some trying to justify their acts even by twisting doctrine. But I don't think that those horrible things are a characteristic of religion. I think that that is a result of evil men, and being that majority of the population are relgious. You will see many acts evil, likely the majority, done by people who believe there is a God, but thier belief in God says nothing about the moral character of that person. So saying the crusades were the result of religion and that Christ's ministry ultimately led to bad things would be like blaming Darwin for Hitlers actions and that the foundational work he did on evolution are evil.

Reading many of your sentiments on religious leads me to beleive you see nothing good in them. That, if you had the power, would abolish all religion from the earth. I would hope that is not the case. I would hope that even if you don't agree with or believe in the religious views of others that you would try to see the good. Do we all have to believe the same thing to achieve harmony?

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cr88192    1570

@HappyCoder:

yes, true.

 

 

it is unclear who this comment is directed towards though.

 

I don't personally really have anything against religions in general though, if that is what you mean (*1).

 

but, I don't necessarily have a particularly positive view of everything in-general though, and systems of authority are very often abused.

but, I am less inclined to give specifics here...

 

but, yeah, a religion doesn't really need a hierarchical organization or centralized leadership (and many religious groups exist just fine without them).

(and, admittedly, I am not really a fan of aggressive proselytizing either, ...).

 

it is basically much like how generally things like markets controlled by a single company, or governments ruled by a single "absolute" ruler, are generally things to be avoided. it is better when there is a freedom of choice in these matters.

 

so, similar sorts of problems...

 

 

ADD: people don't all have to agree to achieve harmony, and expecting everyone to agree on anything is unrealistic. however, people also need to allow a little flexibility, for each person to believe what they believe for themselves.

 

in my case, I also have some potentially non-standard and sometimes controversial views, as well as there existing a sort of split (on religious grounds) between my immediate family and extended family. actually, if one goes out a little further, there is a split again (so, most of the more distant relatives are yet another religion). well, and on the other-side of the family, yet another split, and another religious split.

the result is around 5 religions over 4 generations, and a lot of relatives with uneasy relations.

(and, throw in some ethnic controversy as well, ...).

 

 

*1: note: I do consider myself a Christian, but I am also non-denominational.

then there is all the usual doctrinal fun, a person can maybe debate whether or not I actually classify, but oh well.

 

but, of note here (related to some of the above): Matt 20:20-28 (specifically 25-28), John:18:35-37, ...

...

Edited by BGB

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HappyCoder    5052
@BGB
Yeah, I agree that centralized leadership with much of the power can be risky. If the one in charge is good and has pure intentions, a lot of good can be done. But all it takes is one corrupt leader with personal incentives to undo a lot of good and damage people's trust.

That being said, I am a firm believer in the organization of my church, the LDS church. Nobody in the church call aspire to positions of leadership, rather people who are already in higher positions of leadership choose ordinary members to fulfill certain callings and these members only fulfill that calling for a period of time. Nobody is paid for doing any of these callings. They give of their own time freely. This means greed is in no way motivation. I know that highest callings in the church that require a full dedication of time. meaning they cannot work to earn any money outside of their calling, will sometimes be supported so they can have their needs met. I do trust these men. I believe God can and does reveal who should fill these positions and guides them on the proceedings of the church. Every six months we listen to them speak in General Conference. I believe what they have to say is true. I don't ask any of you to trust them simply because I do, but if you want I would invite you to listen to what they have to say. I am not trying to impose anything on anybody but I see no point in withholding my beliefs simply because some people may disagree with them or even be angry with them. I simply want to put my beliefs out there so hopefully help others understand them more to allow them to form a more informed opinion to allow more informed decisions.


EDIT:
To be more on topic. I do believe there is God. Spiritual experiences are real. There just aren't explanations that are immediately obvious. Sorry for the disruptiveness of my post. Edited by HappyCoder

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cr88192    1570

@HappyCoder:

 

fair enough, though I am fairly settled at present in my generic "non-denominational Protestant" stance.

how strictly accurate this description is, is potentially subject to nitpicking though, but oh well...

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AoS    935

I do agree that many horrible things have been done in religious organizations, some trying to justify their acts even by twisting doctrine. But I don't think that those horrible things are a characteristic of religion. I think that that is a result of evil men, and being that majority of the population are relgious. You will see many acts evil, likely the majority, done by people who believe there is a God, but thier belief in God says nothing about the moral character of that person. So saying the crusades were the result of religion and that Christ's ministry ultimately led to bad things would be like blaming Darwin for Hitlers actions and that the foundational work he did on evolution are evil.

Reading many of your sentiments on religious leads me to beleive you see nothing good in them. That, if you had the power, would abolish all religion from the earth. I would hope that is not the case. I would hope that even if you don't agree with or believe in the religious views of others that you would try to see the good. Do we all have to believe the same thing to achieve harmony?

 

If nothing bad can be blamed on religion than how do you justify claiming the good from them? That's massively hypocritical. And don't even try to tell me Christians don't try to claim the good. Its all they ever talk about. If your religion has no effect on humanity then why the hell do we need it in the first place?

 

We don't all have to believe the same thing. But we do all have to believe that we should leave other people the fuck alone. A message which never seems to penetrate the think skulls of the religious.

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So saying the crusades were the result of religion and that Christ's ministry ultimately led to bad things would be like blaming Darwin for Hitlers actions and that the foundational work he did on evolution are evil

.

Those are very different things, though.

That young carpenter of Nazareth, nor anything he had said, had anything to do with the crusades. I wouldn't know whether he was the son of God, though if one believes in the latter, he most probably was since according to that doctrine we all are, somehow.
What's certain is that Jesus was the first communist in the world, long before Marx and Engels. The reason why he was killed wasn't because he was the son of some god or because he preached some religion. There were literally thousands of prophets preaching more or less the same thing at that time.
The reason he was put to an end was that civil order had to be kept up when he started rabble-rousing the poor against the wealthy merchants and money-lenders, which were incidentially all jews. Though it wasn't the jews (as commonly alleged) who insisted on killing him, they already knew that nothing good would come from making a martyr. If you read through Nikodemus' accounts, you'll find that in fact, the jews spoke in his favour.

The crusades, on the other hand, were indeed a result of religion, but not of "God" or "God's will". They're a prime example of how evil religion is. Much similar to the present-time muslim hate-preachers who give islam such a nasty face, the crusades were a direct result of vicious clerics sending people to kill the innocent. The muslims had been living peacefully in Jerusalem for centuries, until self-declared holy people like Urban and Gregor decided that Jerusalem must be "freed" (in fact, it was free, by all means, until the crusaders arrived). If you kill enough muslims, God will forgive all your sins and your place in heaven is certain. Sounds familiar?

Hitler's genocide, as well as World War 2, and World War 1 before, was unavoidable, as it was staged, anticipated, and welcomed. Let's be clear: Millions of Hugenots and Jews have been dicriminated, hunted, killed, robbed, burned for centuries, and that wasn't in Germany. And this was considered a "good thing", nobody objected to that. Nobody wanted Hugenots or Roms in their neighbourhood, nor  Jews (though no one objected against their money). The fascist rise was the best thing to happen: It gave a solution to "the problem", and someone else did the dirty work (so someone else would get the blame in case it went wrong), and there's a good reason for a just war -- war is always good for business.
England and France even happily sold out the Czechs in the Munich Agreement (knowing what would happen) and His Greatness Pope Pacelli sold the Church to Hitler. Churchill was the only one intelligent enough to know what would become of it, but nobody, in particular not Chamberlain wanted to hear it at that time. Daladier even mocked his fellow citizens for being stupid when he came back from signing the agreement (showing that he knew very well what he had just signed).
Nobody anticipated how far it would go and how terrible it would become, and afterwards everyone pretended being shocked. Everybody has always been against it, sure.

Not long (2-3 months?) ago, a French politician said that if the Germans had worked more thoroughly back then, we wouldn't have the problem with the Roms now. That statement was, unsurprisingly, not received too well, but the fact that someone dares to speak it out after 75 years is telling a lot about what people still think today.

Darwin's works are, although still not conclusively proven, of profound scientific quality, and at the very least, plausible. The Arian pureness shit in the Third Reich (tall, blonde, blue-eyed like Hitler himself or Göbbels or Göring, indeed...) was just utter nonsense, and if it hadn't been death to so many people, it would be a great thing to make fun of. There's absolutely no base to compare these two.

But, war needs an enemy, and someone with either a different religion or a slightly darker skin makes a good enemy. After all, it's important that people can immediately recognize their enemy. It helps if you don't have a job and the enemy is rich, too. First, it's much easier to despise the rich (wait, I said this had nothing to do with Jesus, but here we are right at Jesus...), and second, as a plus, you get to keep the money after killing them.

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frob    44915

MODERATION NOTE:
 
Okay, Hitler and Nazis has now been mentioned, and the last few posts have been confrontational rather than providing cooperative discussion. You should all know what that means.

This has been getting away from the topic of "your personal religious experiences".  Please keep it on topic.

Edited by frob
Fix the broken link, it doesn't like the wikipedia link with a quotation mark in it. :-/

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AoS    935

My personal experience with religion is that they try to impose their views on my specifically and society generally and that I have had friends beaten or murdered by religious parents or religious authority figures.

 

How much more personal than "my good friend was murdered by his parents because he didn't believe in sky fairies" can you get? It seems pretty personal to me. Its also an experience and religious.

 

Perhaps you wanted to the topic to be "hallucinations or delusions you personally experienced that had something to do with, usually the christian, god"?

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Shane C    1368

My personal experience with religion is that they try to impose their views on my specifically and society generally and that I have had friends beaten or murdered by religious parents or religious authority figures.
 
How much more personal than "my good friend was murdered by his parents because he didn't believe in sky fairies" can you get? It seems pretty personal to me. Its also an experience and religious.
 
Perhaps you wanted to the topic to be "hallucinations or delusions you personally experienced that had something to do with, usually the christian, god"?


That's too bad about your friends getting killed. Care to tell a bit more information on that without going into gruesome detail? I'm just not aware of such a thing happening so often. Maybe I'm not very in touch with the world.

I also apologize for kind of catering my thread to theists. I mean, to answer my question is kind of to agree with me that Christianity is real and all that, I guess.

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Dynamo_Maestro    769


I'm just not aware of such a thing happening so often

 

I obviously cant speak for Altar and while I agree killing in the name of religion is probably a rare thing in the west, psychological / physical abuse does occur and is very common. Personally I think teaching a kid that they will burn for eternity in Hell if they don't blindly follow vague rules, or telling stories in general about how God did mass murder is child abuse. Such stuff should NEVER be told to a kid and lets be honest religion is taught young and to make the religion stick parents / priests etc tell of Gods wrath or hell to discourage people from rejecting that religion or religion in general.

 

So yeah while killing is probably rare in the west, there is still an enormous amounts of abuse

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cronocr    756

I don't think it's that rare in the whole planet, unfortunately several religions, practices by small groups in religions, and even individual interpretations of religions, make people to avoid scientific medicine... with damaging, and even deadly consequences.

Edited by cronocr

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_the_phantom_    11250

So yeah while killing is probably rare in the west, there is still an enormous amounts of abuse


Rare in the west now; I suspect you wouldn't have to go too far back in history to find increasing instances of it in the west.... in fact a large number of deaths in Ireland, Northern Ireland and the UK mainland during the latter part of the 20th century were in part down to Catholic vs Protestant split in the region; a split which still causes violence and death in various parts of the UK. (And thats before we get into deaths caused by other religions due to things such as 'honour killings' and the like.)

Of course some might argue that the dead fair better than those who were abused by priests as children, a matter sweapt under the rug by apprently Christian organisations...

And yes, those are my 'experiances', even if they haven't directly effected me...

(For the record I attended a church from about the age of 8 until 18, towards the end I was only still going simply because it was a requirement for the social group and I had friends there. Upon leaving for Uni at 18 I left and never went back. The Church itself was fine, nice people and all that, its just looking back its sad to think that children are effectively being indocrinated and that those in multi-generational families are unlikely to ever question it...)

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Thing is, even if christians don't outright kill you now (they still did 200 years ago, and the muslims still do today), they still try to enforce their belief onto you, and not rarely with borderline legal means.

 

I know of people who live a bit on the countryside in bavaria, which is still somewhat more christian than other places. So one day, the philister priest walks up to them and declares that their children are not to play in the garden on sunday, because that day belongs to God, and they had better be in church anyway. They bid him a good day and sent him away. Since then they're not being served any more in the bakery and are denied entering the grocer or the town's tavern. So, they have to drive to the next town because that christian hypocrite is pissed and instigates his crowd of religious bullies not to deal with the "heretics".

 

Similar story happened a year or two ago with some protestant hypocrite (not on the countryside, but in the city)  who filed a lawsuit against people who were celebrating and dancing on Good Friday. Because, according to him, "Good Friday belongs to us". Well, fuck you, priest. Who do you think you are? How dare you be so arrogant as to say you own a day of my life and you are entitled to tell me what to do and what not to do?

 

In a world where there's justice, such a person would be in jail. Seeing how they're all either pedophiles or thieves (or both), they belong there anyway.

Presuming God exists, God should make fire and brimstone rain on that guy's house and strike him with lightning. In a perfect world, that is.

 

Oh, and then of course they pull the bells every sunday at 10. We have laws against noise pollution, and the noise they make is an order of magnitude above what the law defines as noise. It's also very clearly happening during a time which is defined as "rest period". Which is what I'm doing too, at 10 in the morning on sunday, rest.

Heck, I have to follow this law. But of course the law doesn't apply to Good christians.The law is for everyone else, only not for them. Doesn't matter if their public announcement of gathering for collective breach of their second commandment wakes me up.

The muslims aren't allowed to sing their weird chants from their mosques five times per day (and I'm happy that they aren't, heck I'd hate that...). But then, we live in a country where allegedly everybody is equal and free, and where everybody allegedly has the same rights. So how can you allow one and not allow the other?

Edited by samoth

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cr88192    1570

I don't think it's that rare in the whole planet, unfortunately several religions, practices by small groups in religions, and even individual interpretations of religions, make people to avoid scientific medicine... with damaging, and even deadly consequences.

 

yeah, though part of the problem here is a person putting specific beliefs above those of general reason.

 

like, ideally, ones' beliefs should not subsume ones' sense of reason, as then a person basically has "blind faith", which is generally a bad thing.

like, blind faith does not promote understanding, but is rather (by its nature) a form of willful ignorance.

like, ideally, a person looks for true faith (like, having a reason to believe what they believe), not simply falling into an unquestioning blind faith.

 

similarly, it is one thing to pray for a good outcome for a heath issue, and something very different to try to use prayer as a substitute for going to a doctor.

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L. Spiro    25622

Being from Kansas, I of course adhere to the great and only correct church, the Westboro Baptist Church.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BAHAHAHAHAA I couldn’t keep a straight face!  I seriously strained my acting skills there.

 

 

I was raised to be some form of Christian, not sure which.

Like Hodgman I felt extremely awkward in church, also not believing stories told about guys living inside fish for 3 days etc.  I just figured they were for kids.

 

When I was old enough I did go to a sermon with my cousin once.  The pastor told everyone to look down and close their eyes, and with no one looking, “For those unsure, raise your hands.”

I didn’t even know what he meant, so I guess that made me “unsure”, and I raised my hand.  He had us come to the front.  There were only about 7, and some of them were even crying.  I had no idea what the big deal was but each of us went off with a preacher to private parts of the church to be interrogated as to why we were “unsure”.  He finally clarified that it meant about the Bible and God.  Suddenly I was happy to have a discussion!  I was maybe 12.

 

Long story short, he knew he wasn’t able to answer my questions well enough about those stories I was told as a kid, and the frank fact was in his struggles I could see he was questioning his own faith.

 

I was raised to be Christian but I was born Atheist.  It’s not a choice as some might have you believe.  Falsely believing in something is not believing in something.  It’s lying to yourself so that you can lie to others and blend in, but at the end of the day there is just no way to believe what you really don’t believe.

 

 

L. Spiro

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cr88192    1570

 


Being from Kansas, I of course adhere to the great and only correct church, the Westboro Baptist Church.
People from Kansas don't know what "adhere" even means smile.png

 

 

FWIW, I am currently living in Oklahoma.

so, Kansas, Missouri, and Arkansas, are not really all that far away.

but, I guess it is sort of made up for by being next to Texas.

 

I don't know if the WBC people actually believe their stuff, or if they are mostly just trolling people, either way...

 

apparently they have been denounced by the Southern Baptist Convention (among others), always a good sign...

 

as for the story of Jonah, I remember some arguing for the case that Jonah was actually dead when he got ate by the fish, and was then revived later (after the fish puked him back out on the beach).

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Hodgman    51234


I don't know if the WBC people actually believe their stuff, or if they are mostly just trolling people, either way...
They're a shady business, founded and run by lawyers, who make their money by trolling people at the very limits of legality, and then suing anyone who (predictably) infringes their rights by interfering said trolling, or attacking them. If anyone lower down in the church actually goes along with it due to beliefs, then that also makes them an evil cult, exploiting people with false beliefs for their own personal profit.

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cr88192    1570

 


I don't know if the WBC people actually believe their stuff, or if they are mostly just trolling people, either way...
They're a shady business, founded and run by lawyers, who make their money by trolling people at the very limits of legality, and then suing anyone who (predictably) infringes their rights by interfering said trolling, or attacking them. If anyone lower down in the church actually goes along with it due to beliefs, then that also makes them an evil cult, exploiting people with false beliefs for their own personal profit.

 

 

 

yeah, pretty much.

 

I more meant as in if they were simply trolling for money, and using religion as a cover, or if the people there actually believe in what they are trolling for (even then, it is not good...).

 

then again, sometimes, it isn't necessarily like a lot of the megachurches are a whole lot better...

"hey, attend service, where you pay an admittance fee to sit in theater seating and watch the leader put on a performance...".

yeah, so totally not about the money...

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