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Mooglez

More idea for you to chew on.

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After reading punkphreak's thread, I thought I'd post an idea of mine so perhaps you guys can find a little more amusement while trying to rip someone's idea to pieces. Genre: Presistent online action/strategy focused on teamwork Graphic: 2d isometric; rather stick to basics than have something look ugly in 3d. Control: Keyboard or 6 buttons joypad Setting: Oriental; jung hu (I might have misspelled it. But it's the same setting as Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.) Theme: Heavy use of ba gua/i-ching from the taoism/buddism; basically the eight forces in nature but it can also relate to seasons, directions, animals, and even fortune telling. Other thing that will be included are the buddism and zen buddism belief of eight paths to heaven and the eight gates of hell. Storyline: Haven't given much thoughts on that. This isn't the real focus, and I can easily whip something up later. Gameplay: Combat- fought between 2 sides on a scenerio map with limited time. Each player control ONE unit of his own on the battlefield. (I said action in the genre.) Each side consists of 10+ players; the limit depending on the network code. And the battle is fought like secret of mana, zelda style where you have to walk up and wack the enemy with your sword or shoot magic/arrow at it; simple. If you die in battle, just wait a few seconds and you can re-enter the battle in another form. The attackers wins if they manage to destory two of the three supply carts in the defenders' backline or a pre-set target, or beating the defenders' kill score once the timer runs out. (Though there will be a slight score advantage favoring the defender.) While the defenders win if they held out the attack within the time limit while their kill score is not lower than attackers. Bodies- The player's real form is a spirit that roams the land. What allows them to battle are the bodies that they can inhibite. Each player is limited to 8 bodies that can be trained to a specific type of martial art. There is a total of 64 "schools" that you can choose from. Each school correspond to the ba gua with the 8x8 elements. (If you have no clue what I'm talking about, do a search yourself or post a note on bottom and I'll explain further.) Different school have different attributes like one may walk faster, the other can withstand more hits, blah blah. But all starts with some sort of basic attack and a special move from their inherited two elements in ba gua. These attacks can upgraded later and the character can gain another 3 to 4 additional abilities from the adjecent element. Let me give you some examples. I'll be making up these school's name as I go along. Some do have a history behind them (obviously shaolin), but for the most part they're fictional. Lu school; character armed with a paint brush; specialize in writing chinese poetry; basic attack is he can write letters and gylphs in the air and they would float toward the enemy. (Yea I know it's pretty ridiculas, but so is running up the wall and fighting on bamboo trees.) His special abilities include writing special banners that can be posted to give different bonus to all friendly units in a certain areas and extend the hairs on the brush and entangle an enemy. Pai school; buddist nuns armed with two swords; specialized in fighting as a group. Basic attack = double slash from sword. Special abilites include a whirling attack required charging for a few seconds and special team techniques that requires other Pai school memembers to perform a seven star formation. There's tons of school out there that can be easily filled considering in Chinese mythology/fantasy, everything can be used as a weapon; needles, lute, cheese pieces, and tiny size bow hidden in the sleeves can all count. Resource/Region: 8 different resources corresponding to the 8 regions and the 8 sides on ba gua. The player in the region can only train the bodies in the school that contain the matching ba gua letter to the region. Another word, each region is limited to 15 schools; think of 8 by 8 squares. And if you want to learn the other schools, you gotta move to another region. This could be further limited to 5 or 6 if included a regional goverment system where the leader choose from the list per week. (Doing this will prevent overwhelming the new players with too many choices, plus it gives the player a good reason to be friendly and kiss up to be the leader; i'm making up random bs.) The resource will also be used to upgrade the corresponding ability and to pay for the spirit's link to tap the connection to bodies; heck it's better than saying paying for maintainace on your car. Basically this is one big complex system just to make the player get accustomed to moving and experience playing with others instead of forming a stationary elite group. (cause you will be force to seperate them, and they will start complaining about outside interferance.) Control: standard four directional, one button for attack, one for special ability (holding down opens a menu to cycle selection while releasing the button performs the action), one for message (same as abilities), one for having the character remain stationary while the view scrolls through the map, and one for special items like healing potion(haven't given much thought on this yet.) I think this covered all the basics without going too deep into ability upgrade, battlefield terran, those type of other stuffs. Edited by - mooglez on October 30, 2001 4:12:03 AM

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quote:
Original post by Mooglez
Genre: Presistent online action/strategy focused on teamwork
Graphic: 2d isometric; rather stick to basics than have something look ugly in 3d.
Control: Keyboard or 6 buttons joypad
Setting: Oriental; jung hu (I might have misspelled it. But it''s the same setting as Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.)
Theme: Heavy use of ba gua/i-ching from the taoism/buddism; basically the eight forces in nature but it can also relate to seasons, directions, animals, and even fortune telling. Other thing that will be included are the buddism and zen buddism belief of eight paths to heaven and the eight gates of hell.
Storyline: Haven''t given much thoughts on that. This isn''t the real focus, and I can easily whip something up later.


Hmmmmmm. I guess if its online, it''s okay not to have a storyline.

You need to define the setting more closely. At not point in China''s history have been people been able to throw fire magical balls, or attack their enemies with letters drawn in the air. So that the magic of your version of the Orient is consistent, you need to describe what the magic is, and how it works.
quote:

Gameplay:
Combat- fought between 2 sides on a scenerio map with limited time. Each player control ONE unit of his own on the battlefield.


Why only 2 sides? Why not allow players to control a troop of NPC followers? (Indeed, why not allow for 8 sides.)

Why limited time? In the real world, some battles have time limits, but those are time limits imposed by the battle itself, not just some artificial clock hanging over the battlefield.
quote:

The attackers wins if they manage to destory two of the three supply carts in the defenders'' backline


What are the supply carts used for? Do they contain ammo? Armour? Mana? Can you capture them rather than destroying them?
quote:

Bodies- The player''s real form is a spirit that roams the land.

Ah, good. This is a pretty original idea. (Although by a remarkable coincedence I''m working on a character with a similar ability. But he''s not in ancient China, so you don''t need to worry.)

What about allowing the player to leave his body during the battle? If there are civilian bystanders in a battle, can he enter them? Can a player be exorcised from his body? With chanting? Incense? Meditation? Stake through the heart?
quote:

What allows them to battle are the bodies that they can inhibite.


Are these bodies normal people that they take over, or are they provided by the Powers That Be? If they take over normal people, will people resist? Perhaps the most powerful people - trained warriors, wizards, priests - will introduce the threat of them breaking your control during a battle?
quote:

Lu school; character armed with a paint brush; specialize in writing chinese poetry; basic attack is he can write letters and gylphs in the air and they would float toward the enemy.


Interesting, but will need careful design to avoid it feeling like a child''s cartoon. No offense is intended, it''s a good idea, just one that I imagine would be hard to implement.
quote:

everything can be used as a weapon; needles, lute, cheese pieces


The Way Of The Mouse?
quote:

The player in the region can only train the bodies in the school that contain the matching ba gua letter to the region.


Hmm. Is this the way it was done in ancient China? I don''t think this is the best way to do it, particularly if the regions are quite large - chances are you''ll find lots of people doing the same kind of moves in each region - if any kind of school can be placed anywhere, then you might end up with a more interesting game.

Having said that, it would be good for most schools to be able to train your bodies to only a certain level, and have a limited number of Master schools (probably one per region) that can train your bodies to the highest levels.

Also, what about training one body against another? If one body is skilled in Lu, and another is skilled in Noka, then training them against each other could increase their skills when facing opponents of the schools (i.e. your Noka body would be more skilled when facing a Lu body).
quote:

Control: standard four directional, one button for attack, one for special ability...


Is there a particular reason why you''re not using the mouse? I find that using the arrows for movement and the mouse for selecting where to attack is the easiest method.

What do your bodies do whilst you''re not possessing them? Or do you possess them all the time? If not, will they be happy to train whilst you aren''t looking at them, or will their skill deteriate when you leave them alone for to long? Will they try to go home when you aren''t possessing them? Can you give them orders?

What resources are we talking about? Do your bodies work a mine to gather metal for weapons? Can they make weapons themselves, or do they need to take the metal to a smithy? Do they hunt/fish/gather fruit? Can they do manual work for money? If they need mana to do magic, where do they get it from? Temples? Lay lines? Meditation? Magical potions?

Signatures? We don''t need no steenking signatures!

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The game is focused on battle strategy to work as a team with other people. No where in the post did I even mention RPG related stuff.

>You need to define the setting more closely. At not point in China''s history have been people been able to throw fire magical balls, or attack their enemies with letters drawn in the air. So that the magic of your version of the Orient is consistent, you need to describe what the magic is, and how it works.

Okey, so include an help file describing how chi and basic martial art work.

>Why only 2 sides? Why not allow players to control a troop of NPC followers? (Indeed, why not allow for 8 sides.)

Going to stick to the simple 2 sides. If the game does take off and there''s room for more bandwidth, more sides will definately be added.

>Why limited time? In the real world, some battles have time limits, but those are time limits imposed by the battle itself, not just some artificial clock hanging over the battlefield.

Hrmmm.. usually time limited is needed to end a battle and reward the player resource or xp. If it is taken out it the resource/xp would have to be given out on a kill/hit basis or succesful use of skills. Continues time could definately be done if I don''t use the traditional mission goal. Need to think it over abit, will get back to this later.

>What about allowing the player to leave his body during the battle? If there are civilian bystanders in a battle, can he enter them? Can a player be exorcised from his body? With chanting? Incense? Meditation? Stake through the heart?

Player can be exorcised from the body, but that''s for a few special school that deal with channeling spirits. There will also be some pretty strict rules on leaving the body since the spirit can not perform anything in metaphysical state.

>Are these bodies normal people that they take over, or are they provided by the Powers That Be? If they take over normal people, will people resist?

You get eight bodies... I don''t have an explaination why right now as it will be made up as part of the story. Spirit can not take over normal people.

>Interesting, but will need careful design to avoid it feeling like a child''s cartoon. No offense is intended, it''s a good idea, just one that I imagine would be hard to implement.

Point taken, it''s hard enough for me to find someone who draws the character model with the oriental style I have in mind.

>everything can be used as a weapon; needles, lute, cheese pieces
The Way Of The Mouse?

Misspelled, I meant chess pieces. More specifically Go chess.

>Hmm. Is this the way it was done in ancient China? I don''t think this is the best way to do it, particularly if the regions are quite large - chances are you''ll find lots of people doing the same kind of moves in each region - if any kind of school can be placed anywhere, then you might end up with a more interesting game.

This is exactly the way it was done. The mythological clans usually have a permant foothold in a specific region. As a matter of fact the clan are usually named after the mountain or plains they inhibit. Okey, each region will have constant access to a few school that''s local like 5. To train in the others, the regional leader will have to invite the school masters instructer from the non-local establishment over for a visit "one week" to train the region players (Limited to 3 visiting guest per week). How''s that sound?

>Having said that, it would be good for most schools to be able to train your bodies to only a certain level, and have a limited number of Master schools (probably one per region) that can train your bodies to the highest levels.

Yes, there is a upgrade limit of 3 times on the abilites. There will be 2 master schools of yin/yang that the player can train in once they finish the other 64.

>Also, what about training one body against another? If one body is skilled in Lu, and another is skilled in Noka, then training them against each other could increase their skills when facing opponents of the schools (i.e. your Noka body would be more skilled when facing a Lu body).

Yes, this has already been planned, I just didn''t include it in the basic fact. The 8 bodies will also serve as a limit on how high the level of special abilities you can perform in battle.

>Is there a particular reason why you''re not using the mouse? I find that using the arrows for movement and the mouse for selecting where to attack is the easiest method.

Not sure if this is good idea because it will have to change the number of command combination on joypad/keyboard like pressing back + attack for block because you can''t simulate this on mouse scroll. I''ll keep an open mind on this and maybe a solution will come along.

>What do your bodies do whilst you''re not possessing them? Or do you possess them all the time? If not, will they be happy to train whilst you aren''t looking at them, or will their skill deteriate when you leave them alone for to long? Will they try to go home when you aren''t possessing them? Can you give them orders?

Body without spirit can not do anythiny. Let''s just say they stay in a limbo state.

>What resources are we talking about?

Natural forces.. like 5 bits of lighting ether. These resource will be automatically rewarded to the player for time they spend on battlefield.

>Do your bodies work a mine to gather metal for weapons? Can they make weapons themselves, or do they need to take the metal to a smithy? Do they hunt/fish/gather fruit? Can they do manual work for money? If they need mana to do magic, where do they get it from? Temples? Lay lines? Meditation? Magical potions?

No, no, no, no, and no. Concentrate on combat, not these other stuffs.

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I think that was reffering particularly to his personal inability to make ''pretty'' 3D, not general 3D looks (WC3 looks beautiful! Blizzard''s first 3D game!).

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quote:
Original post by Mooglez
The game is focused on battle strategy to work as a team with other people. No where in the post did I even mention RPG related stuff.


You''ll have to excuse me, I assumed you''d have some RPG-like aspects to make the non-battle parts interesting. (Quests, and the like).
quote:

Going to stick to the simple 2 sides. If the game does take off and there''s room for more bandwidth, more sides will definately be added.


Fair enough. I''d just be careful you leave yourself enough room to grow.
quote:

Hrmmm.. usually time limited is needed to end a battle and reward the player resource or xp. If it is taken out it the resource/xp would have to be given out on a kill/hit basis or succesful use of skills.


I''d do it on use of skills. If possible (and I don''t know how) you could award more XP for using skills in unique, nonobvious or particularly stylish ways.
quote:

You get eight bodies... I don''t have an explaination why right now as it will be made up as part of the story.


Ah, the old ''dead Master is given eight bodies by the Gods to vanquish the enemy and prove his worthiness to enter paradise''? Very mythic.
quote:

Point taken, it''s hard enough for me to find someone who draws the character model with the oriental style I have in mind.


Do you have any examples of the style you want? I''m not offering to help (and if you''d seen any of my ''art'', you''d be glad), I''m just interested.
quote:

Misspelled, I meant chess pieces. More specifically Go chess.


Pity. I rather liked The Way Of The Mouse.
quote:

This is exactly the way it was done.


I know nothing about mythic China, so I can''t argue.
quote:

Okey, each region will have constant access to a few school that''s local like 5. To train in the others, the regional leader will have to invite the school masters instructer from the non-local establishment over for a visit "one week" to train the region players (Limited to 3 visiting guest per week). How''s that sound?


No fundamental objections, but would a master be willing to move to another region to teach? I might imagine he''d expect others to come to him. Also, chances are it''d take him several weeks just to get there, so staying for one would be a waste; I''d imagine that a teacher would probably have visted another school for several months at a time.

Also, you might have wandering masters who are without a school, but may be willing to train you in exchange for resources. (Perhaps he could even ''join'' your party, continually training you until he is ready to leave).
quote:

Yes, there is a upgrade limit of 3 times on the abilites. There will be 2 master schools of yin/yang that the player can train in once they finish the other 64.


Excellent. It also occurs to me: in Dungeon Keeper 2, you can only advance your creatures so far by training, you must place them in real combat to increase their skills further. Maybe the highest skills could only be attained through battle. (Assuming that is consistant with the theme.)
quote:

Not sure if this is good idea because it will have to change the number of command combination on joypad/keyboard like pressing back + attack for block because you can''t simulate this on mouse scroll. I''ll keep an open mind on this and maybe a solution will come along.


In Silver you attack with the left button, and defend with the right. It''s an effective system, but may be too simplistic for your game. Of course, if you''re developing for a Mac, you don''t have a right button, so that''s right out.

Signatures? We don''t need no steenking signatures!

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quote:
I think that was reffering particularly to his personal inability to make ''pretty'' 3D, not general 3D looks (WC3 looks beautiful! Blizzard''s first 3D game!).


Yup, unless some 3d program guru would miraculously help me do the stuff.

quote:
Ah, the old ''dead Master is given eight bodies by the Gods to vanquish the enemy and prove his worthiness to enter paradise''? Very mythic.


This story wouldn''t fly with with all the buddism motif.

quote:
Do you have any examples of the style you want?


Thin water-color drawings. Like the Samurai Jack artwork on Cartoon Network or the concept for FFVI characters.

quote:
Pity. I rather liked The Way Of The Mouse.


Nobody said there can''t be a way of the mouse. There''s all sort of martial arts like the drunken monkey, strikin scorpion, prying mantis... it wouldn''t be that hard to make something up like the rabid rodents.

A lot of the design still need work and need to be modified for improvement. After a day of thoughts, I feel more design needed to be added toward the action battle to make things more interesting like chain combos to perform. Also, various random scenrio goals that would enhance the strategy like saving an inn from destruction. 8 sides with 64 possible combination now seems a little too much. Maybe using the 6 virtues with 36 core combinations would be better suited and I can compensate the lost by raising the upgrade limit.

I think this type of simple 2d or 3d overhead action/strategy could prove to be something interesting to the gamers considering it has one key factor that RPG/RTS lacks. Button Smashing action for extra hit and extra damage while fending off against 10+ players all at once!!! Anyone remember playing those 4-6 players action arcades like TMNT, X-Mens, Simpsons, and D&D where the group was trap in an ambush fighting for their lives and you manage to sneak your way through the carnage and steal the single slice of pizza on the floor before everyone else even though you only lost 2% of your life. You can''t have this type of fun in RPG/RTS. Okey, stopping here, way OT.

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Heh, this sounds interesting. OK, here''s something for you guys to think about from an Asian proper.

1) Yes, the Lu house of martial arts is often featured in pugilistic novels. The way of the brush is actually a valid martial art in Jing Yong (that''s the famous pugilistic novelist most ideas these days are based on).

2) I think the equalivent in English is spelt "jiang hu", and it usually means the pugilistic world at large. Hard-pressed to call it a world proper, though, but I think you get the idea.

3) Yes, the clans are often named after the mountains they inhabit because it''s easier to refer them by that way. Shaolin is a mountain, after all, AND a school. Confusing? Not really.

4) Considered using the zodiac animals for fictional stances instead? The chinese zodiac, of course. I''m born under the sign of a rat.

5) The ba-gua naturally already has conflicting factors built into it: I''m not too sure about this since I''m not taoist, but I believe that the hexagon has many meanings, plus there''s the drawings on each side which represent a certain element or corresponds with something. You woiuld need to do research on the ba-gua then.

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My studies of T''ai Chi have led to some unferstanding of taoism...

Sorry to whack you right off the bat, but the ba-gua is called a Hexagram, not a Hexagon.

The ba-gua is six bars, each one is either broken or unbroken. So those programmers out there already know that there are 64 combinations of broken and unbroken.

A broken line symbolizes Yin, or 0.
An unbroken line symbolizes Yang, or 1.
There is no inherent identification for each line, however, certain patterns can be found.

Taking a pattern such as 110110, there are two reversals:

-- 001001 : This reversal assumes the inverting of the elements of yin and yang within the conceptual structure provided (for example, falling and striking the ground becomes falling and landing)
-- 011011 : The directional reversal implies a conceptual reversal (a good example is hard to find, but the most basic is left becomes right)

oh, and 111111 is full Yang (an all out attack) and 000000 is full Yin (a complete reception).

Hope this helps

George D. Filiotis

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After quite a few thoughts, I think it''s better to junk the ba-gua and the 64 combinations because all these schools could be too diversified and confusing. The current plan is to tone down the numbers down to 6 and use the 6 human states from the nichiren buddism.

"When we look from time to time at a person''s face, we find him sometimes joyful, sometimes enraged, and sometimes calm. At times greed appears in the person''s face, at times foolishness, and at times perversity. Rage is the world of Hell, greed is that of Hunger, foolishness is that of Animality, perversity is that of Anger, joy is that of Rapture and calmness is that of Humanity. These worlds, the six paths, are all present in the physical appearance of the person''s face. "

Okey, so basicially there will be six broad seperation between the (est. 36) schools. Rage will be mostly be pure offensive ie. kill or be killed kind of attack/strategy. Greed will be thieves like stealing... shooting a secret poison projectile at someone behind their back that sort of stuff. Foolishness / Animality will be the drunken money dance, rabid rat frenzy that sort of stuffs. Joy/Rapture will involve art/music forms of martial arts. Calmness/Humanity goes to Shaolin monks, nuns, and the chinese "magicians/alchemist." Perversity/Anger is the one that I''m having a little problem coming up with ideas on.

I''m not trying to preach buddism to the players. It''s just that I want game imbeded with a deep atmosphere and enviroment that could rival the Ultima series'' eight virutes/runes.

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quote:
Original post by Mooglez
Perversity/Anger is the one that I''m having a little problem coming up with ideas on.

hmmm... maybe some type of fighting that involves... um... giving the opponent a disease? flesh eating virus? something that makes them vile and gross, whose very existence is an affront? i dunno, perversity is hard to do without being... well, perverted.
quote:
I''m not trying to preach buddism to the players. It''s just that I want game imbeded with a deep atmosphere and enviroment that could rival the Ultima series'' eight virutes/runes.

not to bash your abilities, but nothing, NOTHING (NOTHING!!!) will ever rival the eight virtues.

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

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