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amesis

Need people that can code AI well for huge MMORPG!

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Need people that can code AI well for huge MMORPG! www.star-fortress.com Email me with Questions at AmesisSF@aol.com

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>How is this rediculous?

Even big companies spending millions of dollars have trouble creating these things. They have very experienced people working for them many of whom have achieved an Honors or Masters at University.

And its always kids with no experience posting on these forums
saying they can make one of these things.

Thats why its ridiculous.

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It also costs a damn lot of money to host one online... paying so much for the server network itself, then paying for the bandwidth used each month, the speed of the net connection, maintanence on the servers, the electricity bills, etc.

I laugh to myself every time I see someone post on here saying that theyre making an mmorpg. The industry veterans have a hard time making these, and take a damn long time doing it. And even then most of them have serious problems when they go public.

If you can afford it and have the talent and time required for making one, go for it. But seriously I highly doubt that you can afford it, because if you could, you would be able to hire people properly and wouldnt be seeking people on a forum like this.

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what a bunch of dicks!
quote:
Even big companies spending millions of dollars have trouble creating these things. They have very experienced people working for them many of whom have achieved an Honors or Masters at University.

a degree does not imply that someone can program well (i know this because of several of the people i graduated with), nor does the lack of one imply a lack of programming skills.
big companies may spend millions and hire professionals, but that does not mean that someone can''t create one without money or a master''s degree. it is stupid to think so.
quote:
It also costs a damn lot of money to host one online... paying so much for the server network itself, then paying for the bandwidth used each month, the speed of the net connection, maintanence on the servers, the electricity bills, etc.

it can be afforded without stockholders, i assure you...
quote:
I laugh to myself every time I see someone post on here saying that theyre making an mmorpg. The industry veterans have a hard time making these, and take a damn long time doing it. And even then most of them have serious problems when they go public.

funny, i know of a few that are done by regular people, not "industry veterans"... i laugh to myself every time i see someone say something can''t be done. those are generally the people who just can''t imagine _themselves_ being able to do it.
quote:
But seriously I highly doubt that you can afford it, because if you could, you would be able to hire people properly and wouldnt be seeking people on a forum like this.

hmm, maybe everyone that uses this forum should just outsource and hire professionals for every game they are making, too. duh.
i suppose that a "non-professional" game made by some kids instead of some huge company will not have all the bells and whistles, or as killer graphics... and i know that most of these "great ideas" end up crash-and-burning before they are done... but really, there is no need to tell someone to give up just because they are asking for help from other hobby game programmers.

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

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Krez,
It obvious from your profile that you are a newbie. So you can''t understand the work that goes into completing a polished game. We were all like you once but experience has taught us otherwise.

Also the reason degree holders are prefered over non degree holders is they are trained so that not only they know what they are doing, they are also able to produce work that teams of people can use. Its one thing to be able to produce lighting fast code, but if people take weeks trying to decypher your work then you are a liability.

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quote:
Original post by Davaris
It obvious from your profile that you are a newbie. So you can''t understand the work that goes into completing a polished game. We were all like you once but experience has taught us otherwise.

ah yes, last resort of someone who doesn''t have an argument... call me a newbie i''m more of a "re-newbie"; that is, i had several years of down-time, during which i didn''t program, so i had to start over again for the details. but i assure you, i CAN understand a lot more than you think. i don''t believe you were ever anything like me, or you wouldn''t say the things you do.
quote:
Also the reason degree holders are prefered over non degree holders is they are trained so that not only they know what they are doing, they are also able to produce work that teams of people can use.

"preferred"? maybe for a job at some company, but that isn''t what i was talking about. if you had added some reading classes to your schedule when you got your "degree", you might have noticed that i was talking about hobby gamers... and where did this "work that other teams of people can use" thing come up? i am not threatening to take a job from you; i just object to your superiority complex...
quote:
Its one thing to be able to produce lighting fast code, but if people take weeks trying to decypher your work then you are a liability.

ah yes, the difference between a professional programmer and a real programmer

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

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quote:
Original post by krez
it can be afforded without stockholders, i assure you...


Yes... if they hold a damn lot of money in their hands.

quote:
Original post by krez
funny, i know of a few that are done by regular people, not "industry veterans"... i laugh to myself every time i see someone say something can't be done. those are generally the people who just can't imagine _themselves_ being able to do it.


Of course I cant imagine myself creating an MMORPG for free, not paying the people who work on it, and expecting it to get hosted cheaply.

quote:
Original post by krez
hmm, maybe everyone that uses this forum should just outsource and hire professionals for every game they are making, too. duh.


Thats not what I said and you know it. I said those that could afford to create AND host an MMORPG online would hire people who could make the game a reality. People on these forums need to set themselves some more realistic goals.

quote:
Original post by krez
but really, there is no need to tell someone to give up just because they are asking for help from other hobby game programmers.


I mostly agree with that, but when a hobbyist attempts to create something that is WAAAAY over his head, he generally gets frustrated and angry at it. People who are asking for help creating a massive project such as an MMORPG either dont know what goes into one, or have the cash and backing to create one properly. Those with the cash and backing for one will hire people that they know will help make the game a reality. Those that are looking for people to do the work for free dont have the money or backing for such an enormous project, it would never see the light of day, and I highly doubt an alpha build would even be up and running before the project is dead.

Edited by - Maximus on November 3, 2001 1:21:57 AM

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I agree with maximus about the money part. I mean you should have at least a T1 connection when making an MMORPG, and not to mention back-up servers and such. Well, you get the point, This stuff adds up.

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Some of you guys have an incredible nack for destroying dreams, programming an MMORPG as a hobbyist is very much possible. You just the basic RPG rules in and then program for one player. Then rework it for two players, and then three, and four etc... Then when you feel that you have it down, you tear the net code down and build it from the ground up with the knowledge you''ve gained. I think you can do it, granted it''s a lot of work, go for it.

As for graduating with honors or having a degree in programming to be any good at it. Look at Microsoft''s staff, I don''t think I need to go any further, as my point is pretty obvious.

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I have to agree with Krez and Daishi, that piece of paper doesn't mean you're fully knowledged in that area. I have a friend that seems to agree that knowledge is limited up to a point and can only be futher expanded with College/University/Tech School experience. I for one am only 18, have talked with many students who have a BS in Comp Sci and I know my knowledge overall and in specific areas are far beyond a few of them, and I have not stepped one foot into a room besides Comp Sci III at High School. While the others give me a good goal to set. ( Reach their level of knowledge ).


Some people just can't see anything possible beyond what their minds and understanding(s) limit. Anything is possible if you are determined enough and have the will. Don't give up Amesis, and ignore the ignorant posters who always seem to try and destroy anyones ideas, hopes, dreams on these threads.

Edited by - David_Kay on November 3, 2001 2:05:33 AM

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quote:
Original post by Daishi
You just the basic RPG rules in and then program for one player. Then rework it for two players, and then three, and four etc...


I think you missed the ''massively multiplayer'' part in MMORPG... they have thousands of players online at any one time. The servers arent just a single server for each world, instead there are groups of servers for each area of each world. The bandwidth used is also massive.

If each player receives 5k/sec from the server, and sends back 2k/sec, thats 7k/sec of bandwidth per player... now how many players? 500 players will require 3500k/sec for that server... now we put together the other servers..... the required bandwidth is rather high.

David_Kay: Would you rather that, instead of someone telling him that his dream wont become a reality, that he attempts it, gets confused as to why its so hard, gets angry at things not working, gives up... etc, etc.

People that take on such a huge project like this are either serious (in which case they pay their employees, have offices, etc), or are people that dont understand what they are getting themselves into.

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You do code for one player first but you have to do it in such a way that you can easily expand it to N characters without any major changes to code. Program single player but think multiplayer basically.

Every part of Tombstone started off as single player and is then linked to the server and works with N players with little additional coding on the client part.

The high cost is a myth caused by looking at games like Everquest.

Tombstone can be run with (at this point anyway) a few thousand players on a K6-3 333 no problem. However it takes much of a 10Mbit LAN to do it. At 12,000 players a 10Mbit LAN is pretty much saturated. In the real world it would take at least 30Mbits per second to handle 12,000 players as the way the tests are done allows for some tricks to keep bandwidth down.

As for a backup server...not at this point. The most you need right now is two mid grade computers and a standard LAN.

Get the basic game working over a LAN efficiently and then look into AI.

Tombstone takes about 72bytes per second per character. If you can keep your system requirements down for the server, a single PC will suffice. The more efficient you can make your packets, the lower the connection you''ll need when you go live. You can test that sort of thing over a LAN.

Ben

[Icarus Independent | Jump Down The Rabbithole | Tombstone: Vendetta ]

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A degree does not matter.

Money matters.

If you don''t have money, you don''t have a chance. Anyone know the price of an OC3? What is it five hundred a month? You need a damn good server/modem. Thats what costs money. You have to charge people to play the game which is not easy if alot of people don''t already know it is good.

I heard that the method used for most MMORPGs is to create a prototype basic RPG that is not multiplayer, and then switch it. But I sometimes have unreliable sources.

Good luck.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by Davaris
Sure keep the dream alive. But remember that the old guys told you so when it goes no where.

[sarcasm]
"I told you so."
One of the noblest sentiments.
[/sarcasm]
I guess saying this makes you feel good, right?

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"dream bashing"

I call it a reality check. Some are just more tactful than others.

"money"

A standard DSL/Cable connection with a static IP will suffice intially for an MMORPG. Once you get more than 100 users at any given time, you''ll need to upgrade your connection.

I currently pay $70 a month for my standard DSL with static IP. The modem (external. Never buy an internal DSL modem) is $300+ unless your phone company is nice and cuts you a deal. I ended up getting mine for free but don''t count on it.

You''ll then either need a computer constantly on to serve as a NAT running Linux or Win2K Pro. You can use WinME (so I heard) but it''s a pain in the ass.

I personally bought an RT311 hardware NAT for $130 which works great. Then you need a hub (8 port should be fine which will cost $30-$50)

You''ll then need two computers. One to run the server and one to develop on. And you''ll need to learn networking. Which isn''t technically hard but it may take you a day or two to get everything set up properly.

It is possible to create a hobby MMORPG but it won''t be cheap or easy.

You''re looking at $840 per year minimum to run it on-line. Plus all the time you''ll need to spend working on gathering a community and keeping them happy.

Ben

[Icarus Independent | Jump Down The Rabbithole | Tombstone: Vendetta ]

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*SIGH*

Another example of the cynical trying to destroy a person''s dreams because they "THINK" they know better.

A degree doesn''t mean to much really. It just means you can do work. Thats about it. People can learn things on their own you know. Alot of things, without the need for college. Not that it doesn''t help, but, if you were to interview two people, one with a degree, and one without, and the one with the degree was a jackass, but the one without proved extremely competent, which would you hire? Certainly not the one with the degree.

It''s just like a Military leader who thinks he can lead just because he has power and authority. In fact, you need no power or authority to lead, you just have to be a leader and a motivator. It''s not something you are born with, but something you learn, and not something you learn through any formal education.

Now granted, making a game like this, or really, any other game, atleast on any kind of timeline can be difficult without the proper resources, but, if anything, it is a learning experience. If they try to write the code, and find it to be tooooo difficult given their present state of resources, they at least learn from what they did. Isn''t that what is important? Maybe they will get something done, but without the big bells and whistles, and without the snazzy graphics, but, just maybe some company will pick them up because they see they do hard work.

Trying to dash someone''s dreams or hopes is the sign of someone who has failed and wants everyone else to fail because it''s not fair to that person that they failed and another in not. There is nothing wrong with telling someone doing something is going to be hard because you know from experience, but, at the same time, if you tell them they are ridiculous and it can''t be done, well that''s just retarded.. to the infinate degree.

Instead of trashing someone, step up and give them a pat on the back and tell them good luck. Negativity does nothing for anyone, ANYONE. So WHY propigate this negativity, thus creating a world that is no better off, and more likely, worse off than before you came along? What is the issue?

I''m a budding programmer, who enjoys programming and learning. I am by no means anywhere near any sort of professional, but, I am learning. One way I learn is reading through the multitude of resources on the internet, Gamedev.net expecially. As I browse the forums, I am reading more and more negativity towards people by people who feel themselves to be more superior is some way or another. Why is this? Can anyone answer me this? What makes you superior? Your skills? If that were true, then instead of thrashing those you feel are below you, you would istead take them beneath your wing so you might teach them and let them learn, even if it is from their mistakes. As industry professionals, people should help create a better environment of learning and shared knowledge instead of this blockade of information I am seeing around here. Not by the majority, but, by people none the less. Giving a person a nudge in the right direction can do an infinate amount of more for that person than just shutting the door in thier face when they ask for help. If you want to see the industry expand, you cannot, should not, and MUST NOT shut doors. Step up and be a leader. Motivate and propigate knowledge so we can all succeed. Hold back, and eventually, everyone will fail, including you.


*Sigh*

Unbeleivable. This is a shame on the community and a mark against humans in general.

-Jason

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quote:
Original post by Maximus
David_Kay: Would you rather that, instead of someone telling him that his dream wont become a reality, that he attempts it, gets confused as to why its so hard, gets angry at things not working, gives up... etc, etc.

People that take on such a huge project like this are either serious (in which case they pay their employees, have offices, etc), or are people that dont understand what they are getting themselves into.



Who says his dream wont become a reality? I didn't see him state that he is trying to make the next EverQuest or UO. It is highly do-able to make a MMORPG. Might take him a long time if doing alone (which I highly doubt) but doesn't mean that his project wont get done.

Everyone runs into problems with their code where they get upset / angry but that is when you can tell how devoted and how much drive you have to learn and excel past the problem, and seek help, .. funny, that is what I thought these boards were for but apprently they are just to bash eachother.

Edited by - David_Kay on November 4, 2001 5:05:29 AM

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quote:
Original post by scubabbl
Unbeleivable. This is a shame on the community and a mark against humans in general.

You''re obviously one of those misguided individuals who believes humans are "generally good." ha! Humans are fucked up - deal with it.

This is not a comment on any of your other statements (I didn''t read the post; it was too long for me).

quote:
Original post by Daishi
As for graduating with honors or having a degree in programming to be any good at it. Look at Microsoft''s staff, I don''t think I need to go any further, as my point is pretty obvious.

Actually, you have no point. You say nothing and you mean nothing. There are some unbelievably brilliant people on Microsoft''s staff, and their products reflect it. You may not think so, buying in into the general rhetoric of Windows instability, but when you consider the complexities of maintaining a backwards-compatible operating system structure, interfaces that are scalable to support an infinite number and variety of devices (some of which have not even been dreamt of yet), and all this in less than 20 years... UNIX is over 30 years old and is still being patched (for comparison).

Add to that an ability for management to say "we were wrong" and completely about-face their strategy (with regard to the internet, DirectX, etc) and you have a fascinating company.

I''m sorry. I just happen to be feeling really cranky.

I wanna work for Microsoft!

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quote:

A degree doesn''t mean to much really. It just means you can do work. Thats about it. People can learn things on their own you know. Alot of things, without the need for college. Not that it doesn''t help, but, if you were to interview two people, one with a degree, and one without, and the one with the degree was a jackass, but the one without proved extremely competent, which would you hire? Certainly not the one with the degree.



I see what you''re saying, but it''s a rather unlikely situation you portray - a much more likely one is that you have two people who both appear extremely competent, one with a degree and one without. Who do you think most emoplyers would go with?
(most jackasses tend not to show what they are during job interviews). If you have a degree it is likely that you can cooperate reasonably well with other people for instance. Employers don''t want to gamble. Period.

quote:

It''s just like a Military leader who thinks he can lead just because he has power and authority. In fact, you need no power or authority to lead, you just have to be a leader and a motivator. It''s not something you are born with, but something you learn, and not something you learn through any formal education.



Ok, I''ve been platoon leader for 2 years so I know my stuff here. Power and authority are actually quite helpful although I agree that being a motivator and pioneer is far more important. Anyway, I really don''t get the last part. Personally I had 9 months of leadership training. Are you saying that the army doesn''t conduct formal education??

quote:

Instead of trashing someone, step up and give them a pat on the back and tell them good luck. Negativity does nothing for anyone, ANYONE. So WHY propigate this negativity, thus creating a world that is no better off, and more likely, worse off than before you came along? What is the issue?



A great line of thought. Only in the wrong context. These experienced guys aren''t trying to bash or trash anyone. They''re trying to be helpful. That''s WHY THEY ANSWER THESE POSTS AT ALL. Would it do any good to say "Go for it!" to every beginner wishing to make Q4? Maybe to some, but opening their eyes to the complexity involved should not be considered negativity!






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quote:
Original post by JFS
I see what you''re saying, but it''s a rather unlikely situation you portray - a much more likely one is that you have two people who both appear extremely competent, one with a degree and one without. Who do you think most emoplyers would go with?

Actually, I don''t think most employers would even interview the guy without the degree, assuming they had enough degree-holders applying for the job.
quote:
If you have a degree it is likely that you can cooperate reasonably well with other people for instance. Employers don''t want to gamble. Period.

I don''t remember taking any "social skills" classes when I was getting my CS degree. And I learned cooperating in kindergarten. I know, I know, you mean writing clean code with nice comments; but believe it or not, you can make yourself do that regardless of education, and I also know some degree-holders who don''t do it right. Having the professor say, "Make sure you leave plenty of white space, and comment thoroughly," does not automatically make everyone in the class keep the good habit after they are done with the class.
quote:
Ok, I''ve been platoon leader for 2 years so I know my stuff here. Power and authority are actually quite helpful although I agree that being a motivator and pioneer is far more important. Anyway, I really don''t get the last part. Personally I had 9 months of leadership training. Are you saying that the army doesn''t conduct formal education??

I will not comment on the army in this forum; nothing I said would be relevant to games.
quote:
A great line of thought. Only in the wrong context. These experienced guys aren''t trying to bash or trash anyone. They''re trying to be helpful. That''s WHY THEY ANSWER THESE POSTS AT ALL. Would it do any good to say "Go for it!" to every beginner wishing to make Q4? Maybe to some, but opening their eyes to the complexity involved should not be considered negativity!

You apparently didn''t read all the posts here. A few of the people said it would be hard, and not likely to be finished (which could be construed as "opening eyes to complexity"). But, most of them just said things like "ridiculous" or told him how he couldn''t afford it or couldn''t do it without Microsoft backing and professional programmers. They never said anything like, "You could do it, but it would take this." They said outright, "You can''t afford it. You can''t program that well." Those people are the ignorant ones scubabbl was talking about.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
quote:
Original post by JFS

I see what you''re saying, but it''s a rather unlikely situation you portray - a much more likely one is that you have two people who both appear extremely competent, one with a degree and one without. Who do you think most emoplyers would go with?
(most jackasses tend not to show what they are during job interviews). If you have a degree it is likely that you can cooperate reasonably well with other people for instance. Employers don''t want to gamble. Period.


Of course, thats true.


quote:

Ok, I''ve been platoon leader for 2 years so I know my stuff here. Power and authority are actually quite helpful although I agree that being a motivator and pioneer is far more important. Anyway, I really don''t get the last part. Personally I had 9 months of leadership training. Are you saying that the army doesn''t conduct formal education??



I was also in the Army Infantry. I spent 4 years and 17 weeks in. I went in as an E-2, and in 3 years, I was an E-5. PLDC taught me how to fill out forms and thats about it. The skills you need to be a leader comes from observing and informal teachings, not from any formal education. Power and authority are only helpful when dealing with people who are the same rank as you or higher. To deal with the troops you are going to lead (Joe E-4 and below), you just have to show you know what your doing, which, once again, comes from experience, practice, and general learned job knowledge, none of which comes from ANY formal school. Military leadership schools teach you alot of red tape, not much else. If you need power and authority to lead, then your not a leader.. then all the more shame on you (you in general, not you specifically, I don''t know anything about you).. or anyone else who does that.


quote:

A great line of thought. Only in the wrong context. These experienced guys aren''t trying to bash or trash anyone. They''re trying to be helpful. That''s WHY THEY ANSWER THESE POSTS AT ALL. Would it do any good to say "Go for it!" to every beginner wishing to make Q4? Maybe to some, but opening their eyes to the complexity involved should not be considered negativity!



No, I don''t consider something like, "Hey, I''ve been in this job for a while, and Im going to be honest with you, the task your taking is going to be very hard. Stay dedicated atleast, and don''t get to down if things don''t go your way..." negative,

But "That''s ridiculous" is way negative.


By the way, what do you do in the Army? Are you regular or nasty guard?

-Jason








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