Need people that can code AI well for huge MMORPG!
I agree with maximus about the money part. I mean you should have at least a T1 connection when making an MMORPG, and not to mention back-up servers and such. Well, you get the point, This stuff adds up.
Some of you guys have an incredible nack for destroying dreams, programming an MMORPG as a hobbyist is very much possible. You just the basic RPG rules in and then program for one player. Then rework it for two players, and then three, and four etc... Then when you feel that you have it down, you tear the net code down and build it from the ground up with the knowledge you''ve gained. I think you can do it, granted it''s a lot of work, go for it.
As for graduating with honors or having a degree in programming to be any good at it. Look at Microsoft''s staff, I don''t think I need to go any further, as my point is pretty obvious.
As for graduating with honors or having a degree in programming to be any good at it. Look at Microsoft''s staff, I don''t think I need to go any further, as my point is pretty obvious.
I have to agree with Krez and Daishi, that piece of paper doesn't mean you're fully knowledged in that area. I have a friend that seems to agree that knowledge is limited up to a point and can only be futher expanded with College/University/Tech School experience. I for one am only 18, have talked with many students who have a BS in Comp Sci and I know my knowledge overall and in specific areas are far beyond a few of them, and I have not stepped one foot into a room besides Comp Sci III at High School. While the others give me a good goal to set. ( Reach their level of knowledge ).
Some people just can't see anything possible beyond what their minds and understanding(s) limit. Anything is possible if you are determined enough and have the will. Don't give up Amesis, and ignore the ignorant posters who always seem to try and destroy anyones ideas, hopes, dreams on these threads.
Edited by - David_Kay on November 3, 2001 2:05:33 AM
Some people just can't see anything possible beyond what their minds and understanding(s) limit. Anything is possible if you are determined enough and have the will. Don't give up Amesis, and ignore the ignorant posters who always seem to try and destroy anyones ideas, hopes, dreams on these threads.
Edited by - David_Kay on November 3, 2001 2:05:33 AM
Sure keep the dream alive. But remember that the old guys told you so when it goes no where.
quote:Original post by Daishi
You just the basic RPG rules in and then program for one player. Then rework it for two players, and then three, and four etc...
I think you missed the ''massively multiplayer'' part in MMORPG... they have thousands of players online at any one time. The servers arent just a single server for each world, instead there are groups of servers for each area of each world. The bandwidth used is also massive.
If each player receives 5k/sec from the server, and sends back 2k/sec, thats 7k/sec of bandwidth per player... now how many players? 500 players will require 3500k/sec for that server... now we put together the other servers..... the required bandwidth is rather high.
David_Kay: Would you rather that, instead of someone telling him that his dream wont become a reality, that he attempts it, gets confused as to why its so hard, gets angry at things not working, gives up... etc, etc.
People that take on such a huge project like this are either serious (in which case they pay their employees, have offices, etc), or are people that dont understand what they are getting themselves into.
You do code for one player first but you have to do it in such a way that you can easily expand it to N characters without any major changes to code. Program single player but think multiplayer basically.
Every part of Tombstone started off as single player and is then linked to the server and works with N players with little additional coding on the client part.
The high cost is a myth caused by looking at games like Everquest.
Tombstone can be run with (at this point anyway) a few thousand players on a K6-3 333 no problem. However it takes much of a 10Mbit LAN to do it. At 12,000 players a 10Mbit LAN is pretty much saturated. In the real world it would take at least 30Mbits per second to handle 12,000 players as the way the tests are done allows for some tricks to keep bandwidth down.
As for a backup server...not at this point. The most you need right now is two mid grade computers and a standard LAN.
Get the basic game working over a LAN efficiently and then look into AI.
Tombstone takes about 72bytes per second per character. If you can keep your system requirements down for the server, a single PC will suffice. The more efficient you can make your packets, the lower the connection you''ll need when you go live. You can test that sort of thing over a LAN.
Ben
[Icarus Independent | Jump Down The Rabbithole | Tombstone: Vendetta ]
Every part of Tombstone started off as single player and is then linked to the server and works with N players with little additional coding on the client part.
The high cost is a myth caused by looking at games like Everquest.
Tombstone can be run with (at this point anyway) a few thousand players on a K6-3 333 no problem. However it takes much of a 10Mbit LAN to do it. At 12,000 players a 10Mbit LAN is pretty much saturated. In the real world it would take at least 30Mbits per second to handle 12,000 players as the way the tests are done allows for some tricks to keep bandwidth down.
As for a backup server...not at this point. The most you need right now is two mid grade computers and a standard LAN.
Get the basic game working over a LAN efficiently and then look into AI.
Tombstone takes about 72bytes per second per character. If you can keep your system requirements down for the server, a single PC will suffice. The more efficient you can make your packets, the lower the connection you''ll need when you go live. You can test that sort of thing over a LAN.
Ben
[Icarus Independent | Jump Down The Rabbithole | Tombstone: Vendetta ]
A degree does not matter.
Money matters.
If you don''t have money, you don''t have a chance. Anyone know the price of an OC3? What is it five hundred a month? You need a damn good server/modem. Thats what costs money. You have to charge people to play the game which is not easy if alot of people don''t already know it is good.
I heard that the method used for most MMORPGs is to create a prototype basic RPG that is not multiplayer, and then switch it. But I sometimes have unreliable sources.
Good luck.
Money matters.
If you don''t have money, you don''t have a chance. Anyone know the price of an OC3? What is it five hundred a month? You need a damn good server/modem. Thats what costs money. You have to charge people to play the game which is not easy if alot of people don''t already know it is good.
I heard that the method used for most MMORPGs is to create a prototype basic RPG that is not multiplayer, and then switch it. But I sometimes have unreliable sources.
Good luck.
quote:Original post by Davaris
Sure keep the dream alive. But remember that the old guys told you so when it goes no where.
[sarcasm]
"I told you so."
One of the noblest sentiments.
[/sarcasm]
I guess saying this makes you feel good, right?
"dream bashing"
I call it a reality check. Some are just more tactful than others.
"money"
A standard DSL/Cable connection with a static IP will suffice intially for an MMORPG. Once you get more than 100 users at any given time, you''ll need to upgrade your connection.
I currently pay $70 a month for my standard DSL with static IP. The modem (external. Never buy an internal DSL modem) is $300+ unless your phone company is nice and cuts you a deal. I ended up getting mine for free but don''t count on it.
You''ll then either need a computer constantly on to serve as a NAT running Linux or Win2K Pro. You can use WinME (so I heard) but it''s a pain in the ass.
I personally bought an RT311 hardware NAT for $130 which works great. Then you need a hub (8 port should be fine which will cost $30-$50)
You''ll then need two computers. One to run the server and one to develop on. And you''ll need to learn networking. Which isn''t technically hard but it may take you a day or two to get everything set up properly.
It is possible to create a hobby MMORPG but it won''t be cheap or easy.
You''re looking at $840 per year minimum to run it on-line. Plus all the time you''ll need to spend working on gathering a community and keeping them happy.
Ben
[Icarus Independent | Jump Down The Rabbithole | Tombstone: Vendetta ]
I call it a reality check. Some are just more tactful than others.
"money"
A standard DSL/Cable connection with a static IP will suffice intially for an MMORPG. Once you get more than 100 users at any given time, you''ll need to upgrade your connection.
I currently pay $70 a month for my standard DSL with static IP. The modem (external. Never buy an internal DSL modem) is $300+ unless your phone company is nice and cuts you a deal. I ended up getting mine for free but don''t count on it.
You''ll then either need a computer constantly on to serve as a NAT running Linux or Win2K Pro. You can use WinME (so I heard) but it''s a pain in the ass.
I personally bought an RT311 hardware NAT for $130 which works great. Then you need a hub (8 port should be fine which will cost $30-$50)
You''ll then need two computers. One to run the server and one to develop on. And you''ll need to learn networking. Which isn''t technically hard but it may take you a day or two to get everything set up properly.
It is possible to create a hobby MMORPG but it won''t be cheap or easy.
You''re looking at $840 per year minimum to run it on-line. Plus all the time you''ll need to spend working on gathering a community and keeping them happy.
Ben
[Icarus Independent | Jump Down The Rabbithole | Tombstone: Vendetta ]
*SIGH*
Another example of the cynical trying to destroy a person''s dreams because they "THINK" they know better.
A degree doesn''t mean to much really. It just means you can do work. Thats about it. People can learn things on their own you know. Alot of things, without the need for college. Not that it doesn''t help, but, if you were to interview two people, one with a degree, and one without, and the one with the degree was a jackass, but the one without proved extremely competent, which would you hire? Certainly not the one with the degree.
It''s just like a Military leader who thinks he can lead just because he has power and authority. In fact, you need no power or authority to lead, you just have to be a leader and a motivator. It''s not something you are born with, but something you learn, and not something you learn through any formal education.
Now granted, making a game like this, or really, any other game, atleast on any kind of timeline can be difficult without the proper resources, but, if anything, it is a learning experience. If they try to write the code, and find it to be tooooo difficult given their present state of resources, they at least learn from what they did. Isn''t that what is important? Maybe they will get something done, but without the big bells and whistles, and without the snazzy graphics, but, just maybe some company will pick them up because they see they do hard work.
Trying to dash someone''s dreams or hopes is the sign of someone who has failed and wants everyone else to fail because it''s not fair to that person that they failed and another in not. There is nothing wrong with telling someone doing something is going to be hard because you know from experience, but, at the same time, if you tell them they are ridiculous and it can''t be done, well that''s just retarded.. to the infinate degree.
Instead of trashing someone, step up and give them a pat on the back and tell them good luck. Negativity does nothing for anyone, ANYONE. So WHY propigate this negativity, thus creating a world that is no better off, and more likely, worse off than before you came along? What is the issue?
I''m a budding programmer, who enjoys programming and learning. I am by no means anywhere near any sort of professional, but, I am learning. One way I learn is reading through the multitude of resources on the internet, Gamedev.net expecially. As I browse the forums, I am reading more and more negativity towards people by people who feel themselves to be more superior is some way or another. Why is this? Can anyone answer me this? What makes you superior? Your skills? If that were true, then instead of thrashing those you feel are below you, you would istead take them beneath your wing so you might teach them and let them learn, even if it is from their mistakes. As industry professionals, people should help create a better environment of learning and shared knowledge instead of this blockade of information I am seeing around here. Not by the majority, but, by people none the less. Giving a person a nudge in the right direction can do an infinate amount of more for that person than just shutting the door in thier face when they ask for help. If you want to see the industry expand, you cannot, should not, and MUST NOT shut doors. Step up and be a leader. Motivate and propigate knowledge so we can all succeed. Hold back, and eventually, everyone will fail, including you.
*Sigh*
Unbeleivable. This is a shame on the community and a mark against humans in general.
-Jason
Another example of the cynical trying to destroy a person''s dreams because they "THINK" they know better.
A degree doesn''t mean to much really. It just means you can do work. Thats about it. People can learn things on their own you know. Alot of things, without the need for college. Not that it doesn''t help, but, if you were to interview two people, one with a degree, and one without, and the one with the degree was a jackass, but the one without proved extremely competent, which would you hire? Certainly not the one with the degree.
It''s just like a Military leader who thinks he can lead just because he has power and authority. In fact, you need no power or authority to lead, you just have to be a leader and a motivator. It''s not something you are born with, but something you learn, and not something you learn through any formal education.
Now granted, making a game like this, or really, any other game, atleast on any kind of timeline can be difficult without the proper resources, but, if anything, it is a learning experience. If they try to write the code, and find it to be tooooo difficult given their present state of resources, they at least learn from what they did. Isn''t that what is important? Maybe they will get something done, but without the big bells and whistles, and without the snazzy graphics, but, just maybe some company will pick them up because they see they do hard work.
Trying to dash someone''s dreams or hopes is the sign of someone who has failed and wants everyone else to fail because it''s not fair to that person that they failed and another in not. There is nothing wrong with telling someone doing something is going to be hard because you know from experience, but, at the same time, if you tell them they are ridiculous and it can''t be done, well that''s just retarded.. to the infinate degree.
Instead of trashing someone, step up and give them a pat on the back and tell them good luck. Negativity does nothing for anyone, ANYONE. So WHY propigate this negativity, thus creating a world that is no better off, and more likely, worse off than before you came along? What is the issue?
I''m a budding programmer, who enjoys programming and learning. I am by no means anywhere near any sort of professional, but, I am learning. One way I learn is reading through the multitude of resources on the internet, Gamedev.net expecially. As I browse the forums, I am reading more and more negativity towards people by people who feel themselves to be more superior is some way or another. Why is this? Can anyone answer me this? What makes you superior? Your skills? If that were true, then instead of thrashing those you feel are below you, you would istead take them beneath your wing so you might teach them and let them learn, even if it is from their mistakes. As industry professionals, people should help create a better environment of learning and shared knowledge instead of this blockade of information I am seeing around here. Not by the majority, but, by people none the less. Giving a person a nudge in the right direction can do an infinate amount of more for that person than just shutting the door in thier face when they ask for help. If you want to see the industry expand, you cannot, should not, and MUST NOT shut doors. Step up and be a leader. Motivate and propigate knowledge so we can all succeed. Hold back, and eventually, everyone will fail, including you.
*Sigh*
Unbeleivable. This is a shame on the community and a mark against humans in general.
-Jason
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