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No Low Level Programming is better ?, Please explain this then ?

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Hello, i was getting the advice that : low level optimalisations are bad.

 

Now i was reading : the new PS4 is not backwards compatible, because of the different architecture.

 

How does that rhyme ?,

Sounds to me they only use low level programming ???

 

i bet a hacker still can play old games on the new PS4.

But i know why Sony does stuff like this : They wanto sell you your games again that you already have, now as download.

 

They also sell ingame stuff, and game upgrades, i dont know if i still wanto call myself a gamer, if thats what a gamer is, someone who pays all the time.

Ill be waiting until the games are 5,- each, secondhand before buying a PS4,

if theres no more games available on CD with PS5, only downloads?, then i stop buying Sony Playstation.

 

If someone can explain to me about the low level programming?, i would feel better if they have a good reason,

but still it would be rediculous if the PS4 cannot play PS2 games, then they are doing it on purpose.

 

greetings

 

 

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Game systems use API now-a-days for game production.

 

 I don't believe a game counsel actually used hardware interface since the early to mid 90's ...

 

 On a side note: trying to keep an API functional through several generations of hardware can be extremely difficult.

Edited by Shippou

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The PS4 isn't backwards compatible because the hardware, including the CPU family and instruction set, are entirely different from the PS3. The same was true of the PS3 -> PS2, and PS2->PS1, except that those systems, at least the launch models, actually included a single-chip version of the previous system to provide hardware-based backwards compatibility.


To be more specific, the PS2 and PS3 include the PS1 CPU, which is used as an i/o and audio controller. However, they do not contain the PS1 GPU - instead, when emulating PS1 games, they run code on the main CPU which translates PS1 GPU command packets into a format useable by their own GPUs.

Since the PS1 CPU was inexpensive and played a vital role in system operation, it never made sense to remove it, which is why all models of PS2 and PS3 can play PS1 games.

On the other hand, the PS2 CPU used in the early models of PS3 was still somewhat pricey, and served no purpose besides enabling PS2 compatibility - thus it was more justifiable to remove it.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that it's wrong to say that PS2 and PSX's chip instruction sets were different.

PSX, PS2, and PS4 use the same instruction set and PS4 is actually stepping back to the conventional instruction set that has been around for a decade or so.

PS3 uses a different instruction set due to the cell processor and how they used the processor.

 

PSX, PS2, and PS4 use CPUs/GPUs specifically designated to their function so they know what they are doing and their processing power and all that...

PS3 uses one huge multi-core thing that is just there and all its processing power is always in flux and always changing to meet it's current demands.

 

So to emulate PSX, PS2, and PS4 on PS3 they need to write an emulator that handles all those instructions and assigning them to the processor correctly... which I imagine is pretty hard.

Reversing it to emulating PS3 on PSX, PS2, and PS4 requires that coding that does all that be removed and the piped to the correct processor... again... I imagine that is a fairly hard thing to do.

 

Either way you are looking at a reduction of efficiency and possibly a huge overhead that wasn't previously there which can cause massive amounts of problems with running the game in a playable way even without considering how many times the emulator makes a mistake and doesn't remove/put in the proper code which causes pretty bad problems too that make certain games unplayable on their own.

 

And while the consoles tend to be of greater ability than their previous generation it just isn't enough to overcome those problems. Or it just ins't worth it to developers, largely because they don't understand that every "wireless" and internet thing they put out makes their stuff less attractive to the audience they get most of their money from currently... Shooter gamers. Having streaming games do not work for Shooters because they introduce just that much more lag and lag is the bane of Shooter fans. Also because emulators are not something you can charge for...where as you can charge fir new versions of the same thing over and over again.

Edited by Durakken

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upvoted Ravyn as well

 

When I saw this and commented. I happened to google and read about how so many users want it, they'll let themselves be pranked into breaking an xbox one

 

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/dec/12/ps4-and-xbox-one-so-why-arent-they-backwards-compatible

 

Also I've heard rumors you can rip open the hardware and play different cartridge games on a Sega Genesis.

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The main reason Sony broke compatibility is believed to be purely business by some. They have stated on multiple occasions that they are trying to make their PS1 and 2 games available through the Playstation Network, but now with the PS4 out and PS3 nearing its end they can put PS3 on the PSN. If they did that, they could make you pay to buy them all over again. They claimed they were going to put a voucher program or something similar in place where you could send in your games to get a voucher so you could download them without paying again, but that never happened. 

 

When they dropped PS2 compatibility in the PS3, they claimed it was to save money, but some believe it was because the PS2 was still selling and PS3s playing those games was hurting the sales they could make on the PS2.

 

Breaking backwards compatibility also has benefits too. At least that is what I'm told ;).

 

There are always pros and cons, but I will be worried when the cons outweigh the pros and a company still goes through with it.

 

I've not read all the Xbox One conspiracy theories yet so I can't comment on them, but I know they are going to be both funny and ridiculous just like the PS3 and PS4 theories were.

Edited by BHXSpecter

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Also I've heard rumors you can rip open the hardware and play different cartridge games on a Sega Genesis.


Not quite.

The Genesis is backwards-compatible with the Master System, but it requires an adapter (the Power Base Convertor), partly because the cartridge connectors don't match. However 3 or 4 Master System games don't work on the Genesis.

---

In more detail:

The Master System uses a 3.58 MHz Z80 CPU with 8 KB of RAM, a 4-channel programmable sound generator, and a graphics chip based on the TMS9918 (also used in the ColecoVision, MSX, and TI 99/4A among others) with an added graphics mode - the added graphics mode is the the standard, used in almost all Master System games. (Later models of the Master System added a primitive FM synth audio chip as well.)

The Genesis uses a 7.67 MHz 68000 main CPU with 64 KB of RAM, a 3.58 MHz Z80 secondary CPU with its own 8 KB of RAM (primarily used in Genesis games to control the audio hardware), the same 4-channel PSG, an FM synth audio chip (not compatible with the one used in later Master Systems), and a graphics chip based on the one used in the Master System (it featured a new graphics mode used by Genesis games, but removed the original 4 TMS9918 graphics modes). Additionally, the controllers use the same communication protocol as the Master System controllers. The cartridge connector also features a pin that can carry a signal that disables the main CPU.

The Power Base Converter has slots for Master System cartridges and cards, and when one is plugged in it uses the main CPU disable signal to allow the Z80 full control over the system. However, a small handful of Master System games use one of the 4 original TMS9918 graphics modes (rather than mode 4, the Master System mode) and thus will not run on the Genesis.

The convertor was made a separate accessory rather than being integrated into the console because the Master System frankly did not sell very well in most territories, and out-of-the-box backwards compatibility is only a strong selling point when following up a successful system.

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They claimed they were going to put a voucher program or something similar in place where you could send in your games to get a voucher so you could download them without paying again, but that never happened. 
 
When they dropped PS2 compatibility in the PS3, they claimed it was to save money, but some believe it was because the PS2 was still selling and PS3s playing those games was hurting the sales they could make on the PS2.

 

Do you have a reference/link to this voucher program rather than just making a claim? In fact Sony has run two such programs that were very specific, one that was for the PSP and the latest which was the PS3->PS4 upgrade vouchers for launch window titles. 

 

Regarding compatibility Sony cut the emotion engine from the original PS3 fabrication in order to lower cost which is what consumers demanded over backwards compatibility. Not to mention your statement makes absolutely no sense because Sony makes money on software licensing and not hardware sales, so it is actually in their best interest to be backwards compatible and sell PS2 games to PS3 owners.

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Do you have a reference/link to this voucher program rather than just making a claim?

I don't have the specifics to it, just that it was talked about when gamers wanted to know what they were going to do with their PS2 games now because most didn't want to go buy a PS2. I don't think it ever came about. 


Not to mention your statement makes absolutely no sense because Sony makes money on software licensing and not hardware sales, so it is actually in their best interest to be backwards compatible and sell PS2 games to PS3 owners.

You need to read it again. I never said I thought they did, but that some do as it was addressed by several gaming magazines. There are conspiracies online for every system every time a system was changed.

 

Though, I don't know about the lower cost by removing PS2 support. I paid the $600 to buy the PS3 when they first came out, a couple years back my PS3 quit working, but because my son couldn't wait for it to be repaired we bought a new one (without PS2 support) and it was still over $550, not much of a savings in my eye. I, personally would have rather had the PS2 support and paid more instead of now where I have my PS2 collection and no way to play them and no way to sell them. At the time I bought the PS3 with no PS2 support companies like GameStop no longer bought used PS2 games and I still have several I liked playing. 

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low level optimalisations are bad.

 

no offence but you should go back to school or start over.

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Hi all, i thought my topic was removed by Sony itself or some moderator,

until i looked at my Gamedev score, it was very low all the sudden, then i realized my topic was still there somewhere.

Thanks for all the answers, i do my best to reply :

 

My head hurts...

 

I am sorry to sound so rude.

 

 

You are thinking like a smart consumer now. If you want to ask something, make it shorter so a simple minded developer like me can understand.

 

Yes, i am a gamer who also programs games, instead of being a game-programmer who does not play games.

 

Thank you Ravyne for your big explaination.

 

Hi,

 

 

Low level coding optimizations are years from being a concern of yours. After 1-3 years of making single player and multiplayer 2D games, then maybe you will be ready but perhaps you will never need to use low level coding optimizations. Using an existing game engine is a far more efficient use of your hard work instead of recreating the wheel by authoring your own low level coding.

 

Hi, i,m busy for ten years now ( looking at my old software in my signature ), and my game engine already exists, altho it is very basic.

 

 

When they dropped PS2 compatibility in the PS3, they claimed it was to save money, but some believe it was because the PS2 was still selling and PS3s playing those games was hurting the sales they could make on the PS2.

 

 

They had excuses like : HD aspect.

Cant they make some pixxels black i ask myself then ?, oh well i didnt believe it then either.

At least someone who might agree with me, thank you.

 btw : i,m not talking about Xbox because i Always buy Playstation.

 

 


low level optimalisations are bad.

 

no offence but you should go back to school or start over.

 

 

That is what they told me that its bad in some other topic : i cant find it anymore now, i say it is good because i have an old PC.

Anyways : i Always got kicked out of school as a kid, i,m past 30 now, programming is something i learned myself.

 

By the way : i,m still playing PS1 games on my PS2, since i dont need a PS1 then, verry handy.

 

greetings

Edited by the incredible smoker

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3Ddreamer, on 10 Mar 2014 - 8:46 PM, said:
Hi,
Low level coding optimizations are years from being a concern of yours. After 1-3 years of making single player and multiplayer 2D games, then maybe you will be ready but perhaps you will never need to use low level coding optimizations. Using an existing game engine is a far more efficient use of your hard work instead of recreating the wheel by authoring your own low level coding.



Hi, i,m busy for ten years now ( looking at my old software in my signature ), and my game engine already exists, altho it is very basic.

 

That is why you are busy for TEN years now and still stuck on "very basic." 

 

People need to do a bit more research, such as here at gamedev, to avoid spending those extra years and thousands of hours of labor with inferior results.

 

Read my signature.

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No professional programmer, let alone game developer, would say that all low level programming / optimizations are bad.

 

But experienced professionals will tell you that things similar to the saying "premature optimization is the root of all evil" ...

 

The gist of most professionals opinions is that you should not focus on specific target or performance concerns too early in the life cycle.  Partially because there is no point in optimizing a program or feature that may not make the cut into a final product anyway.  Partially because by the time the product comes out, the exact appropriate optimization might change.  Partially because clean logical code is easier to understand and modify, and you want to be able to change and improve as much as possible while learning what is fun and what isn't.  And Finally because it is often true that developer time is more important than efficiency in many cases and they'd rather make 3 games that are fun and for sale, then 2 highly optimized games that are just as fun and just as for sale.

 

Also, don't confuse "premature optimization" with "building for a platform".  An example of the type of optimization that would be discouraged is "oh man I have a great idea for how to make this highly detailed crafting system for this fantasy MMORPG i'm working on ... but I don't know which data structure or algorithm is the most efficient implementation".  An example of the type of platform utilization that is NOT bad would be "oh man, since this game is for phones and tablets I have a great idea for how we can leverage the gyroscope to control the crafting system in a unique and cool way".  See the difference is, in the first case, someone has a great idea and is letting the low level aspects reduce their ability to deliver a functional feature.  In the second case, the developer is being inspired to create a more enjoyable or fresh experience in harmony with the target platform characteristics.

Edited by Xai

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Hi,

 

 

Low level coding optimizations are years from being a concern of yours. After 1-3 years of making single player and multiplayer 2D games, then maybe you will be ready but perhaps you will never need to use low level coding optimizations. Using an existing game engine is a far more efficient use of your hard work instead of recreating the wheel by authoring your own low level coding.

 

Though - I am not sure if such (at least some ground) low lewel knowledge can be skipped just to write 'normal' code even if you 

do not use them you should be aware what is okay and what is

not. It seems for me that most people saying you do not need 

a low lewel knowledge know it anyways ;/

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3Ddreamer, on 10 Mar 2014 - 8:46 PM, said:
Hi,
Low level coding optimizations are years from being a concern of yours. After 1-3 years of making single player and multiplayer 2D games, then maybe you will be ready but perhaps you will never need to use low level coding optimizations. Using an existing game engine is a far more efficient use of your hard work instead of recreating the wheel by authoring your own low level coding.



Hi, i,m busy for ten years now ( looking at my old software in my signature ), and my game engine already exists, altho it is very basic.

 

That is why you are busy for TEN years now and still stuck on "very basic." 

 

People need to do a bit more research, such as here at gamedev, to avoid spending those extra years and thousands of hours of labor with inferior results.

 

Read my signature.

 

 

Yeah very basic, i also used some code from some book so thats not good also.

I have nothing like shadow, water etc, i will have to do with whatever i have,

the reason why i am on gamedev : because i dont have 3DstudioMax, it to expensive for me, ( i dont wanto use hacks or cracks, but with this price, they are asking for it )

 

so i wanto trade exclusive music for your game for a old version of 3dmax, so i can make some spaceships myself,

instead of finding someone who makes spaceships for me, i have given up on that already.

 

And thank you, version control is indeed important.

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