The Universe - I don't get it

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14 comments, last by ambershee 10 years, 1 month ago

Hi,

I have been trying to gather some universe related info ... kinda for procedural content generation experiments.

My problem is ... I don't get it. When reading about galaxies and how they use distance to measure the age ...

there must be something that I am missing or thinking about the wrong way.

The universe is expanding ... all galaxies are moving away from each other.

They are not moving away from a certain point, though ... or some galaxies would move away from us faster than others.

Is that something that people should simply not try to wrap their head around, or is there a better way to think about it than comparing it to an explosion (... which has things moving away from a center)?

I guess I need to move from thinking in 3 Dimensions to 4 Dimensions ... but I tried that and it still seems to me as if the way we look at galaxies in the distance implies that earth is at the center.

Is thinking in 3D wrong in general, for some reason?

Any thoughts or ideas? I hate feeling stupid ;-)

Given enough eyeballs, all mysteries are shallow.

MeAndVR

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1. When reading about galaxies and how they use distance to measure the age ...

2. The universe is expanding ... all galaxies are moving away from each other.
They are not moving away from a certain point, though ... or some galaxies would move away from us faster than others.

Is that something that people should simply not try to wrap their head around, or is there a better way to think about it than comparing it to an explosion (... which has things moving away from a center)?


1. Light travels at a constant speed, but when an object is moving away from you, light's wavelength is lengthened (it's called the Doppler effect). So you can tell by the light spectrum's "red shift" how fast it's moving away from you. The spectrum also reveals information about the star's actual brightness - comparing that with its apparent brightness tells you information about its distance from you. But why do you need to know this to develop a game?

2. What difference does it make that there isn't an actual physical center of the universe? All expansion is relative to everything else in the universe. Why do you need to understand this to develop a game?

-- Tom Sloper -- sloperama.com

Thanks for the reply.

I don't need to know this. I just feels wrong having read and heard about those things without "getting it" ... while it seemingly makes sense to everybody else.

I guess I would love to be able to visualize it roughly and simulate the creation of a universe (add time as a procedually controlled factor and render a time lapse ... something like that).

Yeah I know about the effect and red shift, still is seems to me like there is an assumption at work when they explain what the implications of the wavelengths are.

Don't many things affect the perceived wavelength? I think they say "how fast it is moving away from you" is the same as "how much distance the light had to travel"!?

To me is seems as if another assumption or fact is needed to come to that conclusion.

Given enough eyeballs, all mysteries are shallow.

MeAndVR

Let's try applying an analogy that should be familiar to all game developers.

The metric expansion of the Universe can be thought of as having a Scale transform applied to the Universe, and that Scale increases over time.

While that Scale is being applied and increased over time though, the speed of light continues to remain constant. Thus any two points in the Universe can be observed to be moving away from each other at a constant rate.

That Scale is only being applied at the macro level though, which is why we don't see red-shift from local light sources, such as our own sun or stars visible with the naked eye (and even stars visible with most amateur level telescopes, I believe). So the Scale gets applied to each Galactic component of the Universe, but those Galactic components don't apply the Scale to all their child components.

Now, if you're really trying to understand the WHY behind this apparent Scale transform being applied to the Universe, I think most (or perhaps all) theoretical physicists are still grappling with that one

Think about a ball and that you slowly blow air into it. From any point on the surface, it seems that everything is going away from that point. And there is no specific center on the surface of a ball.

It shouldn't be hard to visualize that in 3D even without the warping.

As for the red shift: the reason is simple, yet I wasn't able to get a good explanation of it apart from the usual sound analogy bullshit.

The ball and scale analogies are great. I can see how scale is different from an explosion.

Guess factoring in the red shift and the age of galaxies ... I'll need some time to think through those things.

Thanks!

Given enough eyeballs, all mysteries are shallow.

MeAndVR

'To me is seems as if another assumption or fact is needed to come to that conclusion'

you need to know the wavelength of the light in the reference frame of the source. We think we have this color spectrum data based on our studies of (relatively) nearby stars.

'I think they say "how fast it is moving away from you" is the same as "how much distance the light had to travel"!?'

Information about relative velocity comes from the shift in wavelength. How far away the objects are is calculated with triangulation and brightness (with brightness, like wavelength at source mentioned above, coming from studies of thousands of nearby stars). Knowing the distance the light traveled, one can say when the light was emitted.

You should read about dark energy. There is much related to space that scientists don't know.

Strange that selective quote button is not presented on some of these comments?

The Four Horsemen of Happiness have left.

You just shouldn't worry. We don't know nearly as much about the universe as one would believe. Unless you want to become astronomer, it probably won't make any difference to your life either.

All you really know is that some guy looked through his goggles and noticed a red shift. Although numerous credible scientists have since then confirmed that it's there, you likely haven't even seen it yourself. For all you know, it might not be true at all. But assume it's true that there is a red shift.

One possible explanation is that the universe is expanding. Probably that's the reason, too -- but you don't know. Another explanation would be that the universe has been expanding a million years ago, which is what we see, but it isn't expanding any more (maybe it's shrinking right now!). We only know what we see (and not what is true), and light travels at a quite finite speed whereas the universe is huge. So anything we see has already passed from history to legend to myth a long, long, long time ago.

Another explanation would be that the "vacuum" is not a vacuum but a very light red mist, so you only see its tint at astronomic depths (or incidentially there is no such mist in the solar system). Or maybe there exists mass that you can't see (something like a black hole, but weak enough so light can still escape) which the light has already travelled past, and that mass is now acting in the opposite direction. Maybe there is ... whatever. Maybe it's the Devil playing tricks on your eyes to test your faith. We cannot know, we can only tell what's plausible.

If you want to procedurally create a galaxy, create something that "looks like a galaxy" to you. Plausible, good enough. Who cares about the truth.

Hubble's expanding universe is predicated on the observation that the farther an object is away from us, the more rapidly it's receding from us. If the universe is expanding at a constant rate everywhere, that is exactly what we'd expect to see from every point. Just like a balloon.

The radial velocity is observed by the way certain characteristic spectral lines (the Balmer series of the hydrogen emission spectrum) are shifted into longer wavelengths. You can imagine a spring being stretched to better understand how the lightwaves from a receding emission source get lengthened. Because red light has a longer wavelength than other colours, it's called a "red shift."

So, we can identify some object are receding from us faster than others. How do we know they're farther away? (1) relative magnitide: farther objects are smaller and dimmer. (2) observational parellax: farther objects appear stationary relative to closer objects over time. (3) spectral characteristics: certain emission lines indicate temperature and compostion, if the emission is weaker than a similar object, it's assumed to be farther away (for example, carbon fuses into heavier elements at a specific temperature, if the characteristic emission spectrum of carbon fusion is weaker in one object than another, we can assume the weaker spectrum has travelled farther). (4) occlusion: thing closer block the view of things behind them.

An so on.

Stephen M. Webb
Professional Free Software Developer

A simple (ish) technique

http://beltoforion.de/galaxy/galaxy_en.html

If you try to understand the universe, you will fail. For the simple reason that no one does (yet).

We have a very nice set of theories and equations that work MOST of the time, but we have problems. Data loss at black holes is probably the most famous I guess.

My favourite theory is that the universe is a simulation created by a computer programmer from a more advanced civilization.

The theory goes like this.....

We can create a simulation of the universe with modern super computers, but since we don't fully understand it and don't have enough computing power to make it real time, it's not real.

However we have seen a vast increase in computing power in the last few decades, so it is very highly probable that one day we will have the programming power to create a 100% accurate simulation.

We have also seen a vast increase in our understanding of the universe, so it is very highly probable that with enough time we will fully understand the universe.

Since it is highly probable we will be able to simulate the universe, and highly probable we will be able to understand the universe, it is highly probable that someone will create an artificial universe.

Since more than one programmer can create a simulation, if the above premise is true, then it is likely that multiple universes will be created.

Since there is only one real universe, and there are probably many more simulated universes, then it is more likely that we live in a simulation than in the real world.

Wrap your head around that one blink.png

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