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sunandshadow

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Currently I'm playing Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter, which was recommended to me when I asked for games where one could strategically die or restart to improve one's position within a game.  It does fit that description, though it's not at all obvious how to actually use the system for your advantage.  It's really quite backwards from the way I was hoping it would work; the only way to permanently improve your character is by beating the game, but what do you actually need to improve your character for if you've already mastered 90% of the game's content???  (Arguably, the fact that you keep your equipped gear and learned skills when you die or restart could be considered a permanent improvement, but the high level gear actually seems to make little difference to the difficulty or speed of the combat, and some of the skills come with a detriment that actually makes it harder to survive to the end of the game every time you use that skill.)

 

Anyway, here's my question for you all: say you are an assistant designer, working under the lead designer of a single-player RPG with survival elements.  The lead designer tells you, "In this game the player is supposed to die.  We want the player to be rewarded for dying and starting a new life.  I want you to brainstorm ways that dying could be beneficial, and story reasons that going back in time or starting a new life with memories from a previous attempt would make sense within the world and not make the plot look nonsensical in light of the player's future knowledge.  For example, say an NPC employer betrays the player on the first time through; the second time, the player's suspension of disbelief and immersion would be damaged if their only path is to get betrayed all over again, with no apparent reason for disregarding their future knowledge."

 

So, how would you make dying a good thing?  Both in gameplay mechanics, and in the context of the story and world.

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I've seen at least 2 games based around the concept of a legacy (rogue legacy, and another I can't remember).

The idea is that, as you die, a new offspring will uphold your legacy and fight the battle you've fought all of your life and bring it further.

I believe Rogue Legacy leaves 'imprints' on the next generation, so that whatever trait you had, and however you played, will impact what your next character will be (and I believe you even get to select from a 'gene pool' so to speak). 

I may mixing up this with another game though as I haven't been taking a good look at either in a year.

 


dying could be beneficial,

If your main character died, he had shortcomings your next generation might have immunities or strengths for. Say, for example, your character died because of a giant bat boss, then perhaps the next in line is a hero that has trained all his life to defeat bats to avenge his ancestor, and so, he has bonuses that will help you move through this previous obstacle you weren't able to overcome before.

 


tory reasons that going back in time or starting a new life with memories from a previous attempt would make sense within the world and not make the plot look nonsensical in light of the player's future knowledge.

If your avatar was a hero, it is possible someone was by his side recording his deeds (ala Dragon Warrior) and these would be passed upon the next in line.

 

Would also allow interesting moments where an NPC helps you once, but if you come as the next of kin to him, he will tell you how good he has been to your family, and will demand payback. There are interesting opportunities with this type of design.

 

Was that in-line with what you were hoping for?

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A few things come to mind that may be different when you reincarnate:

  • Position (relative to where you died, another dimension, or some different location)
  • Skills
  • Equipment
  • Knowledge (player's knowledge or character's knowledge)

I'd find it quite interesting if reincarnating let you learn more about the world than a one-player playthrough, e.g. access inaccessible areas, join factions that weren't an option before, etc.

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I've seen at least 2 games based around the concept of a legacy (rogue legacy, and another I can't remember).

The idea is that, as you die, a new offspring will uphold your legacy and fight the battle you've fought all of your life and bring it further.

I believe Rogue Legacy leaves 'imprints' on the next generation, so that whatever trait you had, and however you played, will impact what your next character will be (and I believe you even get to select from a 'gene pool' so to speak). 

I may mixing up this with another game though as I haven't been taking a good look at either in a year.

 

 

 


dying could be beneficial,

If your main character died, he had shortcomings your next generation might have immunities or strengths for. Say, for example, your character died because of a giant bat boss, then perhaps the next in line is a hero that has trained all his life to defeat bats to avenge his ancestor, and so, he has bonuses that will help you move through this previous obstacle you weren't able to overcome before.

 

 

 


tory reasons that going back in time or starting a new life with memories from a previous attempt would make sense within the world and not make the plot look nonsensical in light of the player's future knowledge.

If your avatar was a hero, it is possible someone was by his side recording his deeds (ala Dragon Warrior) and these would be passed upon the next in line.

 

Would also allow interesting moments where an NPC helps you once, but if you come as the next of kin to him, he will tell you how good he has been to your family, and will demand payback. There are interesting opportunities with this type of design.

 

Was that in-line with what you were hoping for?

 

Somewhat in-line with what I was hoping for. :)  I'm primarily interested in bonuses earned before or at death which are then permanently available at the beginning of all future lives.  And also I'm primarily interested in a story scenario where all the lives are the same mind, even if the bodies are different; not children with their own minds.  So this could be a time loop modified such that some gains are carried through when the loop restarts, or it could be a reincarnation variant where the "soul" is an immortal but has to start over when it loses the meatsuit it is inhabiting, or the setting could be within a virtual reality world where the world is restarted around the character to prevent the character from dying...

 

I'll google Rogue Legacy.  :)  Some of the suggestions I got last time around, besides Dragon Quarter, included: The Consuming Shadow, Kingdom of Loathing, and Dungeons and Dragons Online.

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Epic's Infinity Blade is the most popular of the "hero's legacy" games out there right now where you die regularly as part of the progression of the game.

Baroque required the player to die to advance the story. Planescape: Torment worked player death in to the plot.

 
Thanks, I'll look up Infinity Blade too. smile.png
 

A few things come to mind that may be different when you reincarnate:

  • Position (relative to where you died, another dimension, or some different location)
  • Skills
  • Equipment
  • Knowledge (player's knowledge or character's knowledge)
I'd find it quite interesting if reincarnating let you learn more about the world than a one-player playthrough, e.g. access inaccessible areas, join factions that weren't an option before, etc.


Starting location definitely seems like something that would be a good reward - starting in the same place starts to get really boring by about the fourth time, unless it's just a hub from which you can set off in several different directions. Starting in a different body could also unlock various species-related options, which could include factions.

Unlocking things would probably be the main type of reward, though I would want to make it not seem arbitrary or mechanical why things become available in later games. So I would want a variety of locking or blocking mechanisms based on different traits of the character. For example, maybe a fallen log could be initially too heavy and tough for the player to move or destroy, but the player could learn how to cast a fire spell or how to karate chop powerfully, and they would remember this sort of technique after reincarnation. Or a faction might require you to have 50 points of good rep with them from various sources, but starting as a different race might give you an instant 10 points toward that goal because they are biased toward that race, and all members of that race (such as NPCs) get slightly preferential treatment that you can see happening in your first life. In general, short-cuts which are unlocked by the player having gotten to whatever location or goal the hard way once would make great standard unlockables, alongside some more exciting and exotic ones.

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There was a roguelike on Kongregate where death gave you these permanent traits.

I'm affraid I can't remember the name though...

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The old Soul Reaver games used death interestingly. If you died in the "physical" realm, you emerged in the "spirit" realm, which was a twisted version of the physical realm(these terms are probably wrong, but it's been awhile). In the spirit realm you could replenish your life-force to move back to the physical realm. But, If you died in the spirit realm: game over. A lot of the puzzles involved moving between the two. I miss that game sad.png

 

A lot of rogue-likes reward death to some extent, too. Unlocking new characters, abilities, etc, that are available on your next play-through, depending on what you did while alive. Don't Starve and FTL come to mind, but there are countless examples these days smile.png They're not specifically incorporated into the game's story though.

 

Gamplay-wise, I think an interesting mechanic could be a sort of "scarring" system, or immunization. a sort of "what ever kills you makes you stronger" sort of thing tongue.png

 

Story-wise, if your game involves the player being resurrected in the past, just the knowledge of what was lurking around the corner that killed you the first time kind of makes sense. Though, that's a sort of meta-commentary on most games. I mean, every game where you die, but get a bit more skilled with your next life tongue.png 

 

You could work a story where, If the game acknowledged that the player character was an avatar, on death you went back to the "real world," where you could retool things, change strategy etc. and then start again. Basically make it a "game within a game" and any death related story problems mostly resolve themselves.

Edited by Misantes

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While not the same as 'dying', in Dragon Quest Monsters: Joker 2 (Nintendo 3DS), you capture pokemon-like creatures to do battle on your behalf. Once you level two monsters to above level 10, you can merge/breed/splice/whatever the two of them together - this removes both of them from the game (for unexplained reasons) and their offspring gets to keep 1/4th of the combined total of the parents' stats, and your choice of three different inherited skill trees (linear skill lines) from the parents (with 1/4th of the skill points still in that tree).

 

Benefits:

Stats - The new creature starts off with 1/4th or more of the stats of the old creatures, but is still only level 1 and can rapidly be power-leveled up and get more stats, creating a more powerful creature by the time it gets around its parents' old levels.

Skill selections - With the parents, you only got whatever skills the creatures had when you caught them in the wild - you didn't have any choice about it. But by selectively breeding and then selectively choosing what skill trees to inherit, you can give creatures combinations of skill trees that are much more beneficial.

Upgraded skill trees - Skill trees (again, linear skill lines, so not really 'trees' at all) can be leveled up up to N times, depending on the tree. When maxed out, when the monster is bred, the offspring often gets the choice the old skill tree (Now at 1/4th the level of what it used to be) or a new, upgraded, skill tree (starting at level 0) that is the enhanced version of the old tree. Often the new skill trees have a even higher max level than before.

 

For example, one such "skill tree" I had on some of my creatures was "Strength Upgrades". At 5 points into this tree, my creature got an innate +3 strength apart from his regular stats. At 10 points in the tree, he got an innate +10 HP. 15 points in the tree, he got another 3 points of strength, and so on. It maxed out at level 50.

If I maxed it out, and bred the creature, his offspring had the choice of inheriting three trees from any of the two parents' trees, he had the option of inheriting "Strength Upgrades", and/or "Strength Upgrades Lvl 2". Strength Upgrades Lvl 2 gives you +5 strength (instead of +3), +10 health, +5 strength, +10 health, etc..., and maxes out at level 75 instead of 50.

So the child creature would have even better skill trees, and some degree of choice in skill trees. If I wanted to really pump out the creature, he could inherit both Lvl 1 and Lvl 2 of the "Strength Upgrades" skill trees, and both trees would coexist in him as separate (but complementary) trees.

 

The game gets you in the habit of doing this frequently - getting rid of your old creatures and using them to selectively breed new, more powerful, creatures that you'd have to then level up from scratch.

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From a practical point of view I advise against such system.

 

Dying is a failure, a punishment, a thing the player is to avoid. If it's a good thing then what is the punishment? Being healed and at a full health (but that can be fixed easily, by dying :D)? The thing is, an advantage must be something that is HARD to obtain, dying is trivial to obtain (enter the dragon's cave and do nothing).

 

I suggest to look at it from the point of view what could be the main punishment (instead of dying).

 

 

Note: I have seen one game where dying was good that worked, so it's doable but... it was not impressive.

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From a practical point of view I advise against such system.

 

Dying is a failure, a punishment, a thing the player is to avoid. If it's a good thing then what is the punishment? Being healed and at a full health (but that can be fixed easily, by dying biggrin.png)? The thing is, an advantage must be something that is HARD to obtain, dying is trivial to obtain (enter the dragon's cave and do nothing).

 

I suggest to look at it from the point of view what could be the main punishment (instead of dying).

 

 

Note: I have seen one game where dying was good that worked, so it's doable but... it was not impressive.

 

Dying wouldn't be universally rewarded - it generally represents time wasted, or progress toward the end of the game lost and those would still be true even if there are benefits to dying.  I agree that beneficial death could make a game way too easy if it were designed wrong; the player should not be able to gain more and more benefits from, for example, repeatedly completing the starter area and committing suicide.  The proposed rewards of death aren't literally rewards for dying, they are actually rewards of what the player accomplished in life before dying; thus accomplishing the same thing again would not increase the reward, and the reward would mainly allow the player to avoid the grinding that was necessary to accomplish that goal the first time.  My design goal isn't to give the player a reason to do boring things, and both too-easy play and repetition are boring things.  I just think time is a dimension of life which has a lot of untapped potential for game-ification.  And philosophically the idea of being able to re-live a life and perfect or evolve it is very interesting to me.

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You could have dying (and transmigration) as the only way to change your class, where the way you act/think determines your rebirth.  If you act monstrously, you're reborn as a monster class; if you act animalistically, you're reborn as an animal class; if you act kindly, you're reborn as a priestly class; if you act bravely, you're reborn as a warrior class; if you act greedily, you're reborn as a merchant or beggar, etc.  Dying could still be a big setback (even losing all your progress and starting from scratch) while also coming with a potentially big reward (getting a different class to play with).

 

One thing to keep in mind would be to design it so there are a lot of possible interactions with the world.  (If you automatically loot corpse gold there's no decision to make; if you're given the choice that's a choice that can affect your karma.  Likewise if all animals fight to the death you don't really get a choice to kill them; if they try to slink away when wounded that's a karma choice for you.  If you absolutely have to use money to progress, there's no choice, but maybe there's an amazing monk class you can get if you've never handled money in your previous life.)

 

And as a second thing, to try to make it so that classes don't necessarily lead to the behavior that leads to that same class.  If you become a medic because you used a lot of healing, and the medic just heals, then you're leading the player to a repetitive game.  You could manipulate things like story line, or manipulate drops, manipulate pricing, etc. so that a player is more likely to play in a different way and get a different birth the next time.

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I came across this on steam this morning and it made me think of this thread:

 

 

 

Life Goes On is a comically-morbid platformer where you guide heroic knights to their demise and use their dead bodies to solve puzzles. On your quest to find the Cup of Life, you will summon knight after knight to be brutally sacrificed. Impale knights on spikes to create a safe path. Catch a knight on a saw blade (ouch!) to strategically land the body on a button. Freeze your knights into blocks of ice to reach higher ground. As you journey through treacherous and trap-ridden worlds, you’ll show no mercy to solve each challenging puzzle. 

In Life Goes On, death is not a setback. It is the only means to success.

It's not quite along the lines of what the original poster was thinking, but it made me smile :)

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The time-travel mechanic is superbly demonstrated in the movie Edge of Tomorrow.  I saw it.  It's worth seeing once.

 

Otherwise, if you want a persistent world without time-travel, then you have either legacy-play or resurrection-play.

I'd lean towards resurrection play like how it's done in GTA.  If you get too much heat, let the cops kill you and the heat goes away.

 

For the story, I'd make the world very superstitious that everything needs to be buried to pass on to the next life.  But the PC is cursed to not pass on but to reanimate a day after dying.  The PC's main quest is to break this curse so they can go to their blessed afterlife.  The benefits of death would be (at least until the NPC's catch on) that enemies would think they beat the character.   If they encounter the character again after a death, perhaps they would be terrified of the vengeful spirit that is coming for them.  Maybe after breaking into a hard area, not to loot, but to plant an item in a place, pull a sacred lever, talk to someone who is being held captive, etc... the PC can choose to fight their way out, or take some lumps and die whereon they are then buried in the graveyard outside of town. (Hey! Free teleport-ish mechanism!)  Of course, dead bodies get stripped and looted unless you incorporate a superstition that anything that is in the possession of someone who dies is "unclean" and will keep the person from passing on to the next life.  Anyway, a banking / storage system would be useful to re-equip if necessary.  Maybe some not-so-superstitious brigands could loot the PC's corpse (including quest items) whereby the PC would then need to re-equip, track the brigands to their hideout and reclaim all the equipment (and probably more stuff that the brigands also have stolen).

 

OK. I'm just rambling now.  But I clearly see some ways that death can be used strategically and beneficially if designed properly in the game. 

Edited by Meatsack

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Dying wouldn't be universally rewarded - it generally represents time wasted, or progress toward the end of the game lost and those would still be true even if there are benefits to dying.
Yeah, I know what you mean... I think you should rephrase it (and therefore think about it different way). At the moment it's: dying=punishment, how to reward dying = how to reward being punished, which makes no sense (or low sense) :) Leave out the dying part. It's not about dying, it's about achieving as many things as you can before the deadline (dying being one of them).

 

The ultimate goal is to finish the game without dying and you get a full reward next time you play. But if you die early you get a partial reward.

The game needs to be rather short for it to work and with randomly generated content.

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There was PS3 game I had called Way of the Samurai 4 where at key events you could cause various business to open or close in future playthroughs.  If you ensure the language school is open at the start of a game you can understand the british characters in the city.  Likewise different endings required certain business to be open or closed at the start of a playthrough.

 

 

I always thought that metrodvania, or rogue like game where death played a key part would be interesting.   If the game had a dynasty system where you acquire treasure, relics, and unlock new areas to explore during each life. It could be a lot of fun.  The key would be that each death should advance you in some way even if its only a little. Unlocking a new piece of starting gear, a couple extra inital xp or gold.  But at the same time significant gains can only be made through achievement. Fully explore the pyramid and you can start with anything from the ancient egypt gear set, kill the mummified Pharaoh +1 starting level or +1 hp.  Find all the hidden treasures in the pyramid and gain the mummy class to play as.

 

Treasure would allow you to upgrade your base. Relics would provide you with new powers and bonuses.

There could even be dead man switches that you have to die in order to open new areas like in order to get passed a volcano you have to break a wall in an underground cave that causes the lava to fill the cave.It would rather amusing to have some kind trap palace filled with death traps and switches and the only way to get through is to sacrifice countless characters.

 

As a premise you could be a scientist sending out mini clones into alternate dimensions and time periods. Clones can't move from one area to another but you can change things in one area from another. Stop a volcano from erupting in prehistoric times and it adds atlantis to the ancient world but causes parts of ancient egypt to be flooded.

Edited by TechnoGoth

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Dying wouldn't be universally rewarded - it generally represents time wasted, or progress toward the end of the game lost and those would still be true even if there are benefits to dying.
Yeah, I know what you mean... I think you should rephrase it (and therefore think about it different way). At the moment it's: dying=punishment, how to reward dying = how to reward being punished, which makes no sense (or low sense) smile.png Leave out the dying part. It's not about dying, it's about achieving as many things as you can before the deadline (dying being one of them).

 

The ultimate goal is to finish the game without dying and you get a full reward next time you play. But if you die early you get a partial reward.

The game needs to be rather short for it to work and with randomly generated content.

 

Except, that's not really what I want to do either.  I'm interested in games which are not possible to finish on the first playthrough.  I don't want dying to feel like a deadline, or the player to feel like they have a deadline of any kind; just the opposite, since the ability to go back in time repeatedly means they have pretty much all the time in the world to discover all the intricacies of that world and what cool things they can accomplish within it.  I want dying to be a valid strategic maneuver they player won't feel resentful about using as a necessary step to unlock all the things in the world.  This would be an interactive story game aimed at completist players.  If there was randomly generated content at all it would be limited to monster spawning areas.

 

But yeah, I agree that the interesting concept here isn't completely centered on dying.  The idea of dying (or a substitute like time travel or reincarnation) as something which has useful results and minimal penalties to induce the player to do it intentionally and repeatedly - that was the spark idea, but it's not a whole game concept.  I'm glad you're pushing me to clarify what kind of game I'm imagining, it's helpful. smile.png

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Probably difficult in an RPG. Eternal Darkness had you playing different characters who all died at the end of each chapter, the real character was reading a book about them and picked up runes which carried over to the next character in the next chapter. You should play that anyway it was interesting what with all the insanity effects ;) It was on the GameCube.

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Except, that's not really what I want to do either.
Then you have a problem :)

 

I recall one game where die for reward was OK, it was a small game where you descended to hell and was dying and getting stronger while traversing it. It was thematic, it made sense there. But... I pretty sure it's not the kind of game *YOU* wanted to make :D

 

Get rid of the "die" part, rename it, rebrand it, hide it, whatever. It's not compatibe with the mood you are after.

Also, you are a breeding freak, so why not go somewhere that route (going after ones strengths is always a smart move when designing, at least to my experience)? Make some generations, older ones retire and new ones take place. The young build on the old and are better because of the ancestors.

 


I'm glad you're pushing me to clarify what kind of game I'm imagining, it's helpful.
Yeah, I love when people do this to me too. When I'm under the fire of these annoying questions I quite frequently redesign and realize I actually wanted something different than what I said I wanted. Usually with the benefit to the game I was making.

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Except, that's not really what I want to do either.

Then you have a problem smile.png
 
I recall one game where die for reward was OK, it was a small game where you descended to hell and was dying and getting stronger while traversing it. It was thematic, it made sense there. But... I pretty sure it's not the kind of game *YOU* wanted to make biggrin.png
 
Get rid of the "die" part, rename it, rebrand it, hide it, whatever. It's not compatibe with the mood you are after.
Also, you are a breeding freak, so why not go somewhere that route (going after ones strengths is always a smart move when designing, at least to my experience)? Make some generations, older ones retire and new ones take place. The young build on the old and are better because of the ancestors.

 

Death doesn't have to be a serious thing, there could probably be a take on death compatible with any mood. But ok, what is the mood I'm after?

I want the main character to be in possession of secret knowledge of the future compared to NPC rivals. I want the player to be becoming wise, in the sense of learning how to exert a small amount of force at a key point to cause a large affect, and to solve problems not by attacking them head-on, but by subtly in advance knocking them off course. I want the player to be in the position of taking actions which are important to the future but seemingly nonsensical to the NPCs around them, thus creating additional difficulty for the experienced player by lowering the main character's relationship with those NPCs because they think the main character is weird or crazy or suspicious. The player should at first be exploring the world to learn about it, then using their knowledge to hypothesize a strategy for manipulating the world to progress toward a better outcome, then test their strategy and revise as the different actions of the second attempt reveal new information and options. The ultimate goal is to get to a perfect ending. One goal of the game design is to create a small setting and relatively small cast of characters which can react with tremendous, intelligent flexibility to the player's actions. This is something I feel is direly lacking in most games which have a replay mechanic.

I'm undecided about whether I also want the player to be making their main character perfect in terms of physical stats, combat abilities, wealth and possessions (i.e. a base like mentioned by TechnoGoth). Theoretically this game wouldn't actually have to have combat, but I don't know what else the player would be doing to as their "daily work" to earn progress.  I do really like the kind of game where the player starts out at the bottom of the pecking order and works their way up, gaining recognition from NPCs, but I'm not sure it fits well with the time loop structure.  With both ranks and wealth/possessions/a base, it would be challenging to find a way within the story for them to persist when the player resets the time loop.  I definitely don't want the player to have to climb the same rank hierarchy every play-through.

Basically I've described a groundhog day time loop (and the main character did die several times in Groundhog Day, despite the movie being a romantic comedy). He didn't die _usefully_ but that's because the movie's theme wasn't about strategy or subtlety, it was about emotion and transcendence. The TVtropes wiki has several pages related to groundhog day, time loops, peggy sues, mental time travel, and that sort of thing. I went back to look at them again, since it had been a while. A few games were referenced as examples - Warthogs, which is a Harry Potter parody fangame in the style of an old hunt-the-pixel adventure game, and Grim Grimoire, a PS2 anime strategy game set at a magic academy.  Warthogs I already downloaded and tried, but didn't like very much because it was hard to understand the base state of the game enough to try to make a change to it, and the few legitimately-interactable items were buried in fake ones.  Grim Grimoire I added to my "games to possibly buy soon" list.

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I always loved the groundhog day idea. My favourite take on it was the very funny episode of supernatural about the mystery spot where each day Dean dies in weird and wacky ways.

 

If you're looking for examples of games like the only one that spring to mind is Majora's Mask where you have three days to save the world. If you haven't managed to get everything in place to stop the moon from crashing into the town then you are sent back to the beginning. Its good because there different things happen at different times and the clock is always running and there is something you can do to help everyone one in town you just have to figure out what they need. You only need to help them once and that permanently solves their problem in most cases. They varied from listening to an old lady's story to stopping aliens from abducting a girls cows. 

 

You don't need combat in time loop game to make it work.  You could take elements from the life sim games like princess maker, long live the queen, magic academy, lifequest, and then throw in some mystery and relationship building elements.  

 

The character could take art or cooking classes to improve those skills, get to know the people in the town and peice together their back story.  Want the two brothers to reconcile?  You need to back the cake their mom used to make and find the lost toy.

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