Do you think an education bubble exists in the US?

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41 comments, last by JohnnyCode 9 years, 9 months ago

Are we talking about the US?

I think its probably true that we're producing too many young adults with high amounts of student debt for the economy in its current shape to support. That's a complex issue that touches on the workforce as a whole, the state of K-12 education, the loss of the manufacturing sector and others to outsourcing, and other things.

On the K-12 part of the equation, I believe there's been a handful of problems there -- First is basic reading literacy, second is the trend of standardized testing and the ways that has come to shape school curriculum for the worse, third is scientific literacy (STEM), fourth is the utter concentration of education to produce college entrants rather than capable young-adults/workers, and fifth -- related to the last and second -- is the gutting of art, music, and vocational education opportunities. On the last point, I think its a critical failure of K-12 education to not recognize or value those who aren't college-bound or entering a traditional career-field -- it used to be that high schools prepared individuals to enter into vocational apprentice-ships as plumbers, builders, mechanics -- and while I would tend to agree that those fields don't necessarily make for a comfortable life -- there will always be a local need for those services that can't be outsourced. Likewise in the arts -- some people are simply painters and dancers -- far be it from us to tell them otherwise -- yet our K-12 system gives them no quarter. Likewise, for those on a path to entrepreneurship. I value the college education I have, it gives me a comfortable life, debt-and-all, but I think it does us all a disservice to effectively make it a requirement for everyone. At the same time, I also believe that the reliance on college to be the final source of education in some ways has allowed K-12 to be so staggeringly ineffective -- they can fail and pass the buck onto colleges; when a high-school graduate can't find work, its no longer because they were failed by K-12, its because of their personal failure to go to college.

As a secondary backdrop to what I think about K-12 and how it relates to this, I also believe strongly that kids are far more capable of what we ask them to do, and we get such poor results because we're asking them to grow in the wrong way -- its not always apples-to-apples to compare to other countries, but its interesting how much lip service we pay to K-12 education despite our poor results, and even more interesting when you realize that many of the countries outperforming us on reading and STEM literacy are doing it while spending less, assigning less homework, and many of them having more vacations, shorter school years, and shorter school days. Yes, you hear a lot about Japan's education culture and their cram-schools running late into the evening, but on the opposite end of the spectrum you have Sweden (I think, or maybe Finland) which operates as I describe.

Why is it this way? The basic problem is that the American system is essentially an industrial version of education. We try to turn out students shaped like cogs, ready-fit for the college machine. When standards aren't being met, we introduce *more process* and *less care* -- like so many maligned middle-managers. We're so focused on feeding the machine, that the adults in charge can't recognize and don't value those that would be instrumental in different and possibly new machines -- Instead, they're discouraged and malnourished from growing into full form, so that they can better fit into the approved machines. The result if an over-abundance of young adults with very little in the way of discernible skills, let along distinguishing ones, and a stark lack of real confidence to do their own thing. When I was in K-12, only the exceedingly bright students -- those smart enough to challenge an adult on intellect -- were ever given any real special opportunities as far as education goes. In high-school this changes a bit, where a reasonably bright student to elect to take college-level courses for credit, but even those were not especially challenging. In my senior year I even repeated one of those college math classes *voluntarily* because there was nothing else worthwhile to take, and my school, because of the state, wouldn't let me take any more study hall, TA-gigs, or independent study hours. K-12 as it is produces minimal quality goods en mass, that is their focus -- and as they succeed at hitting that incredibly low bar, we should find it unsurprising that it leads to the kind of "bubble" OP describes.

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It should be common sense that it's a good idea™ to have an educated population simply for the sake of it. Not for jobs specifically, and not for academia specifically, but just because education makes the world better. Can you imagine living in Somalia where they have to use illustrations on street signs because 80% of people can't even read? We've decided that our society would be much worse off if reading was only for the rich, so we ensure everyone has this capability.

You are taking things to a complete extreme. Being able to read a street sign doesn't require a Batchelors degree. Neither does being a Mechanic, a builder, a painter and decorator, an electrician, a gas fitter, an accountant and many other vital careers. You are in Australia and for me to emigrate there, there are only two jobs on the list of required trades that actually need a degree.


You are taking things to a complete extreme. Being able to read a street sign doesn't require a Batchelors degree.
Imagine if everyone you meet had a degree in something. That guy you bought a chocolate from? Expert in biochemistry. That taxi driver? Psychologist. The woman selling hot dogs on the street? She's a mechanical engineer.

It would be much more interesting...

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Imagine if everyone you meet had a degree in something. That guy you bought a chocolate from? Expert in biochemistry. That taxi driver? Psychologist. The woman selling hot dogs on the street? She's a mechanical engineer.


It would be much more interesting...


Hah! If you think it'd be interesting for you, try being the poor schmuck trying to service his crushing student debt by slinging hot dogs on the street corner.

Sadder still is that this is *already* the reality for many people.

Being educated is great, everyone should do it... But "having an education" isn't for everyone, not in the US anyways. We have a free and widespread K-12 system that could and should do so much more to produce educated, world-ready young adults who either have valuable skills, or are on a track for higher education/non-traditional career paths. My personal belief is that if we start there, the rest will come more easily, of not as a natural consequence.

throw table_exception("(? ???)? ? ???");

Everyone should have an education, but that's a moving target. College, by definition, is supposed to be education at a level beyond what contemporary society can hold for everyone. As general education requirements grow, K-12 are supposed to service that., not "higher" education.


You are taking things to a complete extreme. Being able to read a street sign doesn't require a Batchelors degree.
Imagine if everyone you meet had a degree in something. That guy you bought a chocolate from? Expert in biochemistry. That taxi driver? Psychologist. The woman selling hot dogs on the street? She's a mechanical engineer.

It would be much more interesting...

.

Learning useless information to "enrich your life" ( learning for the sake of learning ) is a big waste of time and money ...

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Information in the human brain degrades after a while when it is not being used.

After 1 year you start to forget the fine details.

After 5 years you still remember the basics, but specifics are getting very "fuzzy".

After 10 years, it is almost like you never learned the information in the first place.

I cannot remember the books I've read any more than the meals I have eaten; even so, they have made me.

~ Ralph Waldo Emerson


jobs that required a high-school diploma 25 years ago require a bachelor's now

Is that really the case in the US?

Because I haven't really seen it anywhere else. There are certainly more jobs that require a degree now, but those are generally jobs that either didn't exist 25 years ago or weren't that common. I have yet to see anyone require higher qualifications for trade jobs (plumber, electrician, etc) or low skilled work.

Do you have any evidence of this (aside from your mexican fast food anecdote)?

Yes, it's getting common. A Bachelor degree is the minimum. Master is the norm. PhD graduates are starting to become the norm. There are more trade schools now. All you need is a high school diploma/GED (high-school equivalent), and two years of trade schools, then you can become a nurse assistant, a dental assistant, security personnel, data entry specialist, etc.

Education is certainly a problem that's been developing in the past decade or two. As students graduate from their undergrad, if they cannot find a job immediately, the next path they would take is getting their masters. Why wouldn't they? If they don't have a job, they can't pay student loans. If they are coming from the undergrad program, Universities sometimes offer master programs at a discounted rate. Graduated from masters and still can't find a job? Then might as well take the PhD, better than unemployed.

After they graduated from PhD, if they still can't find a job, then they are screwed, but at this time they have already accumulated so much debt, at the price of a house. They either become unemployed, or work for the university as a researcher. If they do get a job as a PhD, it would be at the same rate as a Bachelor who were able to get a job earlier with 5-6 years of experience.

The industries, at least the tech industry, are not rewarding people with educational credentials, for a good reason. Practical experience amounts to a lot more than homeworks. Universities do not equip their students with practical real-life experience. A homework project that connects to a MySql backend hardly counts as a real life project. That's something a smart person can do over a weekend. Unfortunately, that's the kind of stuff Master graduates equip their resume with. That stuff should've been on a Bachelor's resume.

I think we all will need PHDs just to get a basic job soon. When will McDs make the bachelors a requirement for flipping burgers?

I think we all will need PHDs just to get a basic job soon. When will McDs make the bachelors a requirement for flipping burgers?

I'd hope not. That's a ridiculous requirement to have for something that requires basically no knowledge.

On the OP though, it's a really confusing situation in the US, largely because it's hard to tell what the real picture is. Politics cloud the real picture. Americans believe that a higher education leads to a higher income. The data does seem to support this. The data also seems to support that there is less unemployment amongst those who have college degrees. It's a question of the return on investment, the degree being the investment, and the return being the income earned after graduating. The data does support the theory that there is a higher return on investment, one that is actually increasing.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!


On the OP though, it's a really confusing situation in the US, largely because it's hard to tell what the real picture is. Politics cloud the real picture. Americans believe that a higher education leads to a higher income. The data does seem to support this. The data also seems to support that there is less unemployment amongst those who have college degrees. It's a question of the return on investment, the degree being the investment, and the return being the income earned after graduating. The data does support the theory that there is a higher return on investment, one that is actually increasing.

I'm going to refer you to an earlier post

Any way, in the modern day US there is a real problem of kids taking courses that have a very slim chance of landing a real job in the same field.

41% of kids will drop out of college their first time around . Some states are better than others.

After 6 months of graduating, 40% of kids will not have a job, 16% will be working in a job with less than 30 hours a week.

27% of the kids that have a full time job will be working in the field they studied in.

I cannot remember the books I've read any more than the meals I have eaten; even so, they have made me.

~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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