Do you think an education bubble exists in the US?

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41 comments, last by JohnnyCode 9 years, 9 months ago


On the OP though, it's a really confusing situation in the US, largely because it's hard to tell what the real picture is. Politics cloud the real picture. Americans believe that a higher education leads to a higher income. The data does seem to support this. The data also seems to support that there is less unemployment amongst those who have college degrees. It's a question of the return on investment, the degree being the investment, and the return being the income earned after graduating. The data does support the theory that there is a higher return on investment, one that is actually increasing.

I'm going to refer you to an earlier post

Any way, in the modern day US there is a real problem of kids taking courses that have a very slim chance of landing a real job in the same field.

41% of kids will drop out of college their first time around . Some states are better than others.

After 6 months of graduating, 40% of kids will not have a job, 16% will be working in a job with less than 30 hours a week.

27% of the kids that have a full time job will be working in the field they studied in.

Like I said, lots of conflicting data out there. Some support one thing, others support another.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

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Do you have any evidence of this (aside from your mexican fast food anecdote)?

I've seen an inbound product support position for a supplement company require a master's degree in biology or related field. The main duty was to field calls from people saying they had allergic reactions from the supplements, open tickets in the system, and forward the calls to the higher-ups. In no way did the job require any real application of a master's level knowledge. I've seen several secretarial jobs require a bachelor's degree in English and I don't think aside from grammar and spelling that this really needs a bachelor's degree. I've seen machinist jobs require a bachelor's degree (why??). In fact, a lot of blue-collar or service industry jobs I come across state "bachelor's degree" of some sort required. I don't think I'm too far off the mark in saying that things in that regard have gotten out of hand.

I do agree, however, that there are jobs today that didn't really exist 25 years ago (for instance practically the entire job sector of IT) so some comparisons are apples to oranges.

I believe experience is still THE thing in SOME companies, but from my personal experience, it seems that society tries to pays back college students first, for the money (not time and hard work) they invested for that degree.

I think experience is really THE thing in practically *all* companies. In the end, they really don't care what you know more than what you can do with it. The underlying assumption is that a college degree means "I don't have to teach you how to do this job" when it really only means "I don't have to teach you the basics or the theory". Some companies require the degree to be able to pay what that person is really worth or to maintain some internal (or external) standard. The standard is really about proving to a third-party that "Yes, we as a company are competent and our products are quality because all our engineers/scientists/designers/workers/whatever are educated", which is a terrible thing. Some people that can do the work don't have the degree and some people with a degree can't do the work. That's why I applaud programmers without a degree that get high paying or really rewarding jobs. They have to show off their portfolio/experience and it has to be good enough to earn that kind of compensation.

Well, here's the thing -- if you're a company looking to hire, and you've got Phd and Master's graduates willing to accept similar pay and similar jobs due to market conditions, as those with a Bachelors, Associates, or Technical certification, all else being equal, why wouldn't you hire those more-educated people?

The end result actually has a similar parallel to one of the ways an ecology can collapse -- If alpha-species (those at the top of the food-chain) become overpopulated, they feed too much on those species in the middle of the food-chain, and when they've eaten all those species, the species even lower on the food chain explode in population because they face fewer natural predators. Then those species begin eating themselves out of house and home due to overpopulation, but meanwhile those alpha predictors may not be able to eat enough smaller species to sustain themselves, and begin to die off too. So you're left with just those at the bottom and a few lucky alpha-predators that won't allow a population of mid-food-chain species to ever establish itself again. And probably those alpha predators have dwindled below a viable breeding pool too, so they eventually die off as well. This scenario is the specific worry over the Tuna population and its effect on the ocean ecology, for example.

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I'd say perhaps some of those final alpha predators become part of the bottom chain.

And perhaps that is the effect on the American Econmoy too, where the middle class is being eaten, and you just have the Rich and the Poor. Those above or below a certain threshold become one or the other.

And by the way Ravyne, what are your credentials, because you have some very intriguing posts. Poet? Writer? Pyschiatry?

haha.

They call me the Tutorial Doctor.

I have to admit, I actually mistated that parallel to a form of ecological collapse by a bit, and I'll have to correct it when I have a bit more time to compare facts.

I think to your point about reducing to either the rich and the poor, its not so much that you split down the middle and the chips fall where they will, its more that a wedge is driven in somewhere, and then things on the lower end drive towards the bottom (oversupply of workforce from a hiring perspective), and then you have things on the higher end where wealth generally is able to continue capitalizing on itself (The old adage: It takes money to make money). Its not quite that simple, but those trends grow more and more exacerbated the wider the gulf created by that wedge grows.

As far as credentials, I'm mostly just a guy who reads a lot about a variety of things, thinks about them, and tries to see the truth of the matter, the connections and the parallels. I'm a technical writer by profession (Microsoft, Visual Studio / C++ documentation team), and a game developer by education (DigiPen RTIS). I know a lot about a few things, and a little about many things -- and I've always been served well by being able to relate between them all. I've just been the curious type all my life.

throw table_exception("(? ???)? ? ???");


Well, here's the thing -- if you're a company looking to hire, and you've got Phd and Master's graduates willing to accept similar pay and similar jobs due to market conditions, as those with a Bachelors, Associates, or Technical certification, all else being equal, why wouldn't you hire those more-educated people?

Educated doesn't neccasarily mean smart or capeable of doing the job. A Phd is a research degree and is mostly theretical with the purpose of expanding global knowledge on a particular subject.
I have intervied people who have been self taught and also people up to Phd level and the truth is there are some people with excellent academic achievments but, in the real world I wonder how they manged to get to the interview without killing themselves because they really have been that dumb. That isn't to say that everybody with a phd is dumb there are just as many idiots without academic smarts who are dumb too.



Educated doesn't neccasarily mean smart or capeable of doing the job.

Well, of course, there are no universal truths. But in general its a better start than most others to cull the herd of applicants -- the question isn't whether all Phds are better suited to the role than all non-Phds, its whether at least one of the 5 Phd applicants will, statistically, prove to be more capable than the 10 top non-Phds that you spent a man-week separating from the stack of 300 non-Phd applicants you received, to fill in the 15 interview slots you have time for.

As a holder of 'only' an associates degree, from what is technically a trade-school (though accredited and generally respected) no less, I'm exposed to this bias more than most, but it is what it is. I'm lucky to be clever enough to punch above my weight-class and have been fortunate enough to interview with people who had the time, interest, and authority to look past those few letters. The reality is not ideal, but everyone's got their own definition of 'fair' that looks an awful lot like 'tractable' if you squint at it a bit.

throw table_exception("(? ???)? ? ???");

Well, of course, there are no universal truths. But in general its a better start than most others to cull the herd of applicants -- the question isn't whether all Phds are better suited to the role than all non-Phds, its whether at least one of the 5 Phd applicants will, statistically, prove to be more capable than the 10 top non-Phds that you spent a man-week separating from the stack of 300

And this gets less and less true. It turns out lately, that first prefered apliciants are those of experience and no education , then those of experience and education, and then those of only education, and then those of no education and no experience (for multiple of industries, especialy IT one).

I believe its due to the education bubble, that simply forces people to study university to have possibility to get any job, not a targeting job, and thus employers seeking working power considering further facts of an apliciant than an education much more prior like.

Even when picking apliciants that needs to yet only get "the ability" to work at a certain position (picking a junior technologist in an amonium factory), the picked "boy" will be the one with fast learning skills, not the one with degree promising the knowledge of it, even if the boy without degree in the field would outperform degree proven apliciant in a small extent over seeked skill.

But what a degree can prove, is discipline and dedication, but forcing people to spend piles of money to do so, thus getting possibly to gain any of the jobs - is mad.

for example, If in a town was a very capable surgeon, His assisting a terible nun .... I would preferably pick a leather and fur producing modeling mastress productres !. She would create a very comforatble sealing wounds upon patients. The best possible possible. Even if she was a retarder sick little affected girl society would like to protect from... she would be the best!

like (mister pudlik, there sems to be ill skin here!) (pudlik - what?!) (look!) (this is inproper skin! he is sick!) (now wait)

......... ok sister, deal with it...... it ends like this, and sis will save your ass, just becouse she is experienced fur and leather producer

Now show me a silly who can do this out of an university?

Surgeon pudlik will be desperate of not kjnowing how to help his patient, and his health terrible mosntrous sister will be the last to save you!

I am tryin'to explain that inspite of a lot of a professional like education, kids canot learn just like that. And they examine further trials for no matter of a job.......

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