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Fleets with personality & no micromanagement (4X)

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It's for a turn based space empire building 4X game. The major goal is reduction of micromanagement and makeing the player not thinking in terms of individual ships but whole formations.

 

 

Fleets

The player forms a fleet and appoints an admiral, it pops up on the home world and consists of one flotilla made of 4 squadrons (no actual ships yet). A fleet has a special crest, can have perks, experience, special trainings, unique abilities, history, officers, attached units, etc, etc. These are shared among all ships of the fleet. The player can have up to 8 fleets total.

 

Flotillas & squadrons

Fleet is an abstract thing, it does not appear on the map. Only flotillas appear and you move only flotillas. There are 4-12 squadrons in a fleet (at the beginning all in the first flotilla), you can split a flotilla anytime by deciding how many squadrons you want to move to the new flotilla. Flotillas can also merge anytime. But only flotillas OF THE SAME FLEET (can't merge flotillas of fleet A and fleet B).

 

How fleets are used (operational level)

The first flotilla of a fleet always houses the admiral (there is a star on that flotilla's icon) and it's the HQ of the fleet. Since a fleet can be divided into up to 12 flotillas it's quite a big and flexible formation able to conquer several systems simultaneously, the thing is all flotillas need to operate within a certain radius of the HQ flotilla (admiral) or face penalties (poor communication with the fleet commander). So, while you could move flotillas all over the map, in practice you want them to stick more or less together (like fleet A defends the north while fleet B defends the south).

 

Ships

I don't want the player to think in terms of ships, so these are never displayed on the map, also information about them is limited, also they are abstracted. To build a ship you go to fleet panel and click Build/Add (yes, inside a fleet, not a shipyard). Then a desired ship will be sent to that fleet from the nearest base or built and then sent (route is hidden/abstracted, they player can see only ETA). Similarly, if you want to remove a ship from a fleet you click Remove and that ship will be sent back to the base (you can't send it directly to another fleet, it first needs to go to the base where they will change the insignia on the hull to mach the insignias of the other fleet :D).

 

How ships are allocated within a fleet

The player has NO SAYING on how it's done, it's all automatic. All ships that are assigned to a fleet are redisributed evenly among all squadrons (the squadrons that have least ships getting them first). The player can only click on a flotilla and examine all squadrons (but can't do anything about it).

 

 

 

What you think?

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The player has NO SAYING on how it's done, it's all automatic. All ships that are assigned to a fleet are redisributed evenly among all squadrons (the squadrons that have least ships getting them first). The player can only click on a flotilla and examine all squadrons (but can't do anything about it).

Unless there is a crazy reason why the player should not have any control I believe this would be a mistake. 

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Ships

I don't want the player to think in terms of ships, so these are never displayed on the map, also information about them is limited, also they are abstracted. To build a ship you go to fleet panel and click Build/Add (yes, inside a fleet, not a shipyard).

 

If they can't think in terms of ships, see ships on the map, or examine much information about ships, why let the player build them?  It seems like the filming of the show Finding Bigfoot -- you won't find or see a Bigfoot (ships in your case), but you still have to drag your production gear out into the woods to let some knucklehead talk about Bigfoot like it is the most important damned thing in the world.

 

I sense a disconnect.

 


How ships are allocated within a fleet

The player has NO SAYING on how it's done, it's all automatic.

 

Why does the player want to build ships, then?  Again, you can't think about them, see them, read about them, and don't even DREAM about allocating them!  biggrin.png I know, I'm being a goon and making light of this part of your idea, but, if ships aren't the focal point, abstract all of this out.  Don't even mention ships.  Only have the player worried about the fleet level or flotilla or gaggle. 

 

I would like to be more helpful.  Your description of the various levels of abstracted ships really confuses me, though.  They may very well be naval terms but I find them off-putting in that way that makes me dislike WoW jargon and acronyms in the workplace.

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I create often too complex design and start simplifing it quite drastically later on
This concept is the one that got simplified drasticly already :D Imagine the original concept :D

 

I could easily get rid of squadrons (they are mostly for aestetic fluff) and replace them with percentages (Flotilla #1 has 70% ships and Flotilla #2 has 30%). Also, I woudl rather get rid of ships than fleets and flotillas.

 

Unless there is a crazy reason why the player should not have any control I believe this would be a mistake.
Actually, there is a crazy reason. I hate these individual ships that move around, I hate the way games make me thing like some accountant instead of an emperor. So IT'S PERSONAL :D

 

But as for control, the player has control, but on the fleet level, not flotilla/squadron. The player says how many ships of what kind there are in the fleet and then these are auto distributed among lower level formations.

 

I'm wondering if at this level of abstraction you shouldn't have flotillas which are dealing with sectors (or subsectors), composed of fleets with distinct costs and abilities (fast attack, bombard, support, etc.) and ditch ships altogether.
Yeah... Tempting :) I suppose in the alpha I would ommit ships and just make flotills.

But ships have some advantages, it makes simulation so much easier (otherwise I would need to introduce some HP of flotillas and upgrade and other non intuitive things). Also what about ship design and research? Plus, I suppose a player expects to have some ships if he/she runs a space empire :D

 

Still, yeah, no ships is compatible.

 

If they can't think in terms of ships, see ships on the map, or examine much information about ships, why let the player build them?
You can see them in the battle report (and thart's a big thing), the point is to build proper composition of ships to assure victory. You merely don't track how these move and can give only general orders to their placement (like 70% in the south, 20% in the north, 10% in reserve).

 

Your description of the various levels of abstracted ships really confuses me, though.
Hmmm... I will post it simplier way in a moment, tell me if it's still confusing.

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Since it was confusing I will tell you another story (forget the first post) :)

 

 

Once upon a time there was a space Emperor. He had 5 admirals:

- Red - the most brave one, all ships under his command dealt +10% damage

- Yellow - cunning and treacherous, all his ships had a chance for a first strike in battle and were immune to ambush

- Pink - the noble one, not that skilled but rich, all his ships were cheaper to maintain by 20% since he paid for it from his personal purse

- Green - master of defence, all shields on his ships had halved chance for breakdown

- Blue - machines maniac, all his ships were immediatelly repaired after battle

 

The Emperor gave Red adminal: 4 battle cruisers, 10 destroyers and 4 brand new destroyers; Yellow admiral got 2 battlecruisers, 20 outdated frigates and 6 destroyer.

 

Then Emperor ordered the Red admiral to make 3 red flotillas, the 1st red flotilla got 50% ships and the 2nd and 3rd red flotillas 25% each. The Yellow was to create 2 yellow flotillas of equal size 50% and 50%.

 

Then the imperial clerk make a fleet roster and concluded that the empire had:

* 1st Red Flotilla: 2 battle cruisers, 5 destroyers and 2 brand new destroyers

* 2nd Red Flotilla: 1 battle cruisers, 3 destroyers and 1 brand new destroyers

* 3rd Red Flotilla: 1 battle cruisers, 2 destroyers and 1 brand new destroyers

* 1st Yellow Flotilla: 1 battle cruisers, 10 outdated frigates, 2 destroyers

* 2nd Yellow Flotilla: 1 battle cruisers, 10 outdated frigates, 2 destroyers

at the disposal.

 

Then came bad aliens and were annihilated by the 5 admirals and the Emperor gave them medals and the Red one got to marry the imperial princess. And they lived happily ever after :)

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You can see them in the battle report (and thart's a big thing), the point is to build proper composition of ships to assure victory.

 

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but aren't you still talking about [Word for Lots o' Ships] rather than individual ships?

 

For instance, let's do a thought experiment that involves a game about electric guitars.  Electric guitars are my third favorite thing in the world, so I'd enjoy this game.  Anyway, let's say that you run a business that builds electric guitars.  Not surprisingly, these things of beauty are made of parts.  Lots of parts.  From chunks of wood to magnets -- even some plastic, metal, and wire!  The sum of these things makes your end product.

 

Certainly you can make different guitars from different combinations of parts and quality of components, but, in the end, you make guitars.  You don't create parts, you don't see parts, you don't allocate parts, you don't care about parts.  You care about finished guitars.

 

While this game isn't likely to be fun, it is focused on one product:  Guitars.  Not about controlling guitar parts (strings, knobs, cables, etc.)

 

If you are focusing on [Word for Lots o' Ships] rather than ships, don't make the player build ships.  Let them customize their guitars... errr, [Word for Lots o' Ships], but don't make them worry about the little things they can't even control or influence.

 

Again, I don't really know what your game is about, so take this advice with a grain of salt and the spirit of encouragement and good-humour with which it was given.

 

Since it was confusing I will tell you another story (forget the first post) smile.png

 

Sadly, I still don't get it.  I will respectfully refrain from making further comments to prevent my ignorance from shining too brightly!

 

Best of luck, though.  I'd love to play this game when it is complete.  I want to be a Yellow guy.

Edited by GoCatGo

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[Sorry for the posting malfunction.  Pilot error!  Please delete, mods!]

Edited by GoCatGo

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It does seem a bit confused still. On one hand you want to have the player design and build ships and on the other hand you don't want them to actually deal with ship assignment and use.
 
Why not let the admirals design and build their own ships in an abstract way that the player just sees the overall status of the fleet?
 
Once upon a time there were three admirals.
 
War Master Black - An elite fighter, who utilized the latest technology, surprise and stealth in all his battles.
The Yellow Lord of Char - Who knew every salvagers trick in the book and ruled a vast junk planet, he could push even the old ship to its limit and command vast armadas.
The Blue Eyed Mystic - Whose telepathic powers unlocked the potential of his crew, and devastated the enemy.  She preferred to stay safe behind vast shield walls while artillery ships laid down devastating bombardments.
 
The emperor allocated them each 100 points from the empires military capacity and commanded them to take the fight to the enemy.
 
War Master Black built a fleet three high tech war cruisers equipped with energy absorbing hulls, cloaking fields, an array of devastating weapons, and the fastest engine available.
The Yellow Lord of Char built a fleet of 50 refurbished drones, 10 strike craft, and 5 custom built cruisers with the latest weapons payload.
The Blue Eyed Mystic - Built a super carrier filled with fighter and bombers, 4 shield projector ships with gravity nets, and 2 heavy artillery ships able to inflect damage over a vast area.

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Sadly, I still don't get it. I will respectfully refrain from making further comments to prevent my ignorance from shining too brightly!
Nah, people who "don't get it" are usually good for testing ideas :)

 

I'd love to play this game when it is complete. I want to be a Yellow guy.
It never stops to amuse me what parts of the game players find fascinating :D

 

On one hand you want to have the player design and build ships and on the other hand you don't want them to actually deal with ship assignment and use.
Not exactly. I want the player to assign the ships on a strategic level, I just don't want to not make it low level regular chore.

 

The idea is that the player can say "Yellow fleet will have all ships with anti radiation shields" and then send that fleet at the border with a race that uses radiation weapon and to say "Green fleet will have more weapons" and send that fleet against a weak enemy.

 

If the admirals (AI) were to build and assign these ships the whole concept of separate fleets would make no sense (because every fleet would be identical - except the perks of the admiral)..

Plus, where is the player's choice then? Deciding what kind of ships to build and which fleet should get them is an interesting & meaningful decision in my opinion.

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Not exactly. I want the player to assign the ships on a strategic level, I just don't want to not make it low level regular chore.
 
The idea is that the player can say "Yellow fleet will have all ships with anti radiation shields" and then send that fleet at the border with a race that uses radiation weapon and to say "Green fleet will have more weapons" and send that fleet against a weak enemy.
 
If the admirals (AI) were to build and assign these ships the whole concept of separate fleets would make no sense (because every fleet would be identical - except the perks of the admiral)..
Plus, where is the player's choice then? Deciding what kind of ships to build and which fleet should get them is an interesting & meaningful decision in my opinion.

 

Well I guess what I was suggesting is that admirals have traits which determine what kinds of fleets they put together.  The elite trait means they small numbers of the ships with the best tech, stealth means use fast ships, with stealth capabilites.  Engineer might mean they favour drones or mines.  Fighter ace would have more strike craft and carriers.

 

The player picks admirals from a pool or creates them to fit an overall style and strategy for a fleet.  You could then have doctorines to give it situational purpose.  Like Enemy of green, invasion force, defensive. The admiral will the refit the fleet as nessary you can stil send them out whenever you want but if you want to switch from defensive to green invasion force it might take 5 turns at a ship yard to complete the refit.

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Each fleet/flotilla then is seen as a size/strength rating, doctrine rating (How suited their ships are to their planned tasks, planet security, ground invasion fleet, orbital bombardment, space superiority, etc), and modernization rating.
I'm caucious about such mechanics. I mean, these are unique (and there already will be tons of unique things in the game) and somewhat confusing. Plus not so intuitive (especially combat loses & damages, everyone understands you had 100 ships, 25 got destroyed, 10 heavily damaged and 17 light damaged but if I were to try to explain it in some multi layered strength rating drop it would be confusing).

 


Fleets/flotillas (and their commanding officers) would slowly gain general ability the longer they serve, and specific abilities in their selected doctrine. And these can also have a Rock-Paper-Scissors mechanic to them with various pros and cons, and possibly unlocking new ones as the game advances.
Definitely. That one I want (especially whole fleets getting experience instead of individual ships).

 


The player picks admirals from a pool or creates them to fit an overall style and strategy for a fleet. You could then have doctorines to give it situational purpose. Like Enemy of green, invasion force, defensive. The admiral will the refit the fleet as nessary you can stil send them out whenever you want but if you want to switch from defensive to green invasion force it might take 5 turns at a ship yard to complete the refit.
The problem with such mechanic is you make a decision once (decide the doctrine) and then you don't need to do anything for the rest in the game. While, if you have new types of ships becoming available constantly (research), you have a stream of interesting choices on regular basis (I have researched multi phasing shields, do I want to replace my older ships? Or maybe replace only ships in my primary invasion fleet to cut on costs? Or maybe instead go for ECM refit?)

 

I'm afraid there won't be too much to do in the game if I take this recurring decision from the player.

 

Also, if it's so abstracted, what's the point in analysing battle results? Since you can't quickly affect the fleet composition anyway.

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To build a ship you go to fleet panel and click Build/Add (yes, inside a fleet, not a shipyard).[...]

 

Similarly, if you want to remove a ship from a fleet you click Remove and that ship will be sent back to the base (you can't send it directly to another fleet)[...]

 

This seems a bit confusing to me... If ships can only be built/added from within a fleet, then it feels a bit like removing one from a fleet without it being reassigned to another is orphaning it... where is it in the meantime?  Is it available at the planet/shipyard in question if that location is attacked, or is it unavailable until reassigned?

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To build a ship you go to fleet panel and click Build/Add (yes, inside a fleet, not a shipyard).[...]

 

Similarly, if you want to remove a ship from a fleet you click Remove and that ship will be sent back to the base (you can't send it directly to another fleet)[...]

 

This seems a bit confusing to me... If ships can only be built/added from within a fleet, then it feels a bit like removing one from a fleet without it being reassigned to another is orphaning it... where is it in the meantime?  Is it available at the planet/shipyard in question if that location is attacked, or is it unavailable until reassigned?

In the Military base (or in the pool of reserve/unused ships). And no, it can not be attacked, it has no specific coordinates on the map, it's an abstract.

Technically, such ship travel time will be calculated by the distance of the fleet to the nearest military base (but physically it won't be there, actually ships won't have position, only assignement and "how long it takes for them to reach the assignement").

 

Interface wise I will probably display it as "Reserve" (remove = send to reserve; add = send from reserve to fleet; build = construct at reserve and then send to fleet).

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Acharis, on 17 Jul 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

 

Luckless, on 17 Jul 2014 - 12:15 AM, said:
Each fleet/flotilla then is seen as a size/strength rating, doctrine rating (How suited their ships are to their planned tasks, planet security, ground invasion fleet, orbital bombardment, space superiority, etc), and modernization rating.

I'm caucious about such mechanics. I mean, these are unique (and there already will be tons of unique things in the game) and somewhat confusing. Plus not so intuitive (especially combat loses & damages, everyone understands you had 100 ships, 25 got destroyed, 10 heavily damaged and 17 light damaged but if I were to try to explain it in some multi layered strength rating drop it would be confusing).

 

You can still keep track of the amount of ships in a fleet, even show it to the user, if you want to be able to know how many ships were destroyed. You could also let the user see how many ships of specific types are in each fleet (pre-defined or designed by the user). As long as they don't have to manually put ships in fleets, I think it avoids the micro-management that you don't want.

 

 

'Acharis', on 17 Jul 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

The problem with such mechanic is you make a decision once (decide the doctrine) and then you don't need to do anything for the rest in the game. While, if you have new types of ships becoming available constantly (research), you have a stream of interesting choices on regular basis (I have researched multi phasing shields, do I want to replace my older ships? Or maybe replace only ships in my primary invasion fleet to cut on costs? Or maybe instead go for ECM refit?)

 

You can make it possible to change the doctrine at any point in time. Doing so will then slowly change the composition of that fleet.

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As long as you can change the doctrine at any time the fleet is out of combat and even combine some doctrines the player still has the power to control and repurpose the goal of a fleet as they want it just takes time to reorganize and refit the ships.

 

The problem I've always found with manual refitting of ships in games is that is prohibitively expensive. You earn 15 credits a turn but to refit your cruiser with the latest tech costs 1000 credits or you can build new one of 5 turns at a shipyard. Its not till the end game when I can normally afford the refit cost and by then I don’t need to refit. At the start and mid game when it’s most useful I can’t afford to do it.

 

Letting the AI manage the fleets and shipyard capacity also solves the ships collecting dust problem.  How many times have players built ships at planet for defence or as a deterrent and left them there to collect dust never being used and so far out of date that when they do get attacked that don’t last a round.

 

 

Your admirals could also gain experience, and over time acquire new traits, special skills, problems, and medals. It can also introduce new political and espionage game play elements.

 

What do you do if your best and oldest admiral is a drunken xenophobe who is always causing diplomatic insults to your allies?

 

Do you really trust the blue admiral to defend your core worlds after you just declared war against her people?

 

After a long bloody war with green you form a peace accord by marrying the Yellow admiral to one of their admirals and turn a border planet into a new neutral empire ruled by the former Yellow Admiral.

 

Getting rid of manual ship design and fleet control also opens up the possibility of moving away from the rigid tech tree to a more fluid tech web with advancement and counter tech possibilities.

 

Instead of just researching specific technology you could allow the research of counters.  Your spies have information on Green’s latest shields with that info you can have your scientists designs a new kind of phasor that can piece through green’s shields.  Giving the Green Enemy doctrine to a fleet will ensure they have this tech when it’s ready and will send Green into complete disarray when you launch your surprise attack.

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You could also let the user see how many ships of specific types are in each fleet (pre-defined or designed by the user). As long as they don't have to manually put ships in fleets, I think it avoids the micro-management that you don't want.
Actually, that's the original idea I had. But then when I started to think about the INTERFACE... :D It all become twisted and complex :) I mean, really, how do you make an interface for this "allow player to set what kind of ships and how many of each there should be in a given fleet"? So, I concluded that a simple and trivial "add/remove" button with a list of ships and a counter how many there are in the fleet (especially since there are like 5-8 fleets total) at the moment would be easier, less confusing and sufficient.

 

But if you know how to make such interface I'm all ears :)

 


As long as you can change the doctrine at any time the fleet is out of combat and even combine some doctrines the player still has the power to control and repurpose the goal of a fleet as they want it just takes time to reorganize and refit the ships.
Yes, it allows making decisions (if needed). But the player would not use that option frequently (how many times you change your mind if you want your fleet to have +10% attack or +10% defence? It's more like a one time decision). Ships design and research is *much* better since it gives you a stream of fun decisions every X turns.

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If all the doctrines do is give a fleet +10% or attack or +10% defence then they aren't really interesting or important.  To be meaningful then the doctrine should significantly change the composition and purpose of the fleet.

 

But the problem with ship design and research is that MOO2 was the last one to make it interesting and important.  In most 4x games all you do is every few turns open up the designer and increase attack or defence by +5% or gain a point of speed. Is that fun?

 

The thing that made MOO2 ship design fun was the special modules and weapons modifiers.deciding what combination of special abilities you wanted a ship to have and then cramming in as many weapons in the left over space.  But that was generally not something change that often.  You might upgrade the weapons when you researched new tech but you tended to keep the special for most the game unless something better came along.

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The emperor allocated them each 100 points from the empires military capacity and commanded them to take the fight to the enemy.

War Master Black built a fleet three high tech war cruisers equipped with energy absorbing hulls, cloaking fields, an array of devastating weapons, and the fastest engine available.
The Yellow Lord of Char built a fleet of 50 refurbished drones, 10 strike craft, and 5 custom built cruisers with the latest weapons payload.
The Blue Eyed Mystic - Built a super carrier filled with fighter and bombers, 4 shield projector ships with gravity nets, and 2 heavy artillery ships able to inflect damage over a vast area.
You know, the longer I look at it, the more I want the ships to be built by *me*. I mean, it sounds cool! I want to decide on these energy absorbing hulls and drones and gravity nets! Why AI should have all the fun!? I want to do it too! :D

 

What I don't want is all this boring logistics, like a ship is built on planet X, then I move it to fleet A, then I look through fleet A to find outdated ships for refit, then send them to the nearest shipyard then look through the shipyard for the previously refit ships and try to remember where they were originally and where I was supposed to send them... The AI can have all if it, all :D

 

But deciding on gravity nets, mutiphasing shields and fighters distribution, no way! I'm not giving it to some "AI doctrine", it is *me* who should do these fun & cool & cute things :)

The AI can take all the boring things, the fun ones I want to do myself.

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If your favourite part is the builder playing around with all the different cools system and features like lego to make an awesome ship then why not focus on that? I'm going throw out a wild idea here instead of fleets with personalities what about ships with personalties?

 

Forget grand sweeping intergalactic strategy with massive fleets fighting for control of hundreds of worlds.  Instead think small. Maybe a dozen planets across 4 star systems.

 

Give the player 100 points to spend on building their empires fleet. Give them lost of little choices and cools options to customize each ship with let them spend all 100 on a single ship or 10 small ships its up to them.  

 

Maybe they design a ship with 1 giant space gun and a bunch of drone bays.   Then give them the ability to design or choose what kind of drones are in each bay.  This one has repair drones, this one has drones that explode on impact, this one cloaked drones with lasers.

 

Develop a new tech or just want to redesign a ship no problem simple dock it in the shipyard and change what you want the you just have to wait for the refit to be completed.

 

Now that I think about it what I'm describing sounds a lot like a 4x version of the old games workshop table top games like Necromunda, Warhammer, or Warhammer 40k 

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If your favourite part is the builder playing around with all the different cools system and features like lego to make an awesome ship then why not focus on that? I'm going throw out a wild idea here instead of fleets with personalities what about ships with personalties?
No, fleets are definitely much more my thing :) I don't want it small, I want it grand & epic.

 

What I meant is, how I'm supposed to build a grand fleet if I have no saying if my fleet will be using shields!? Actually, I feel designing ships fits grand scale much more than small scale (in the small scale you are just given a few ships and use them tactically, while in the grand scale you need to design your whole military).

 

Plus, if I know the enemy on the north uses weapons that are weak against shields while those on the south uses weapons that are strong against shields then the decision if shields should be installed is definitely a strategic level decision. I need to decide on these things myself, otherwise I would be unable to run my empire...

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Maybe there is some way to allow the player a decision what kind of "ships" or "technologies" there are in a fleet without simulating every single ship and this whole "ship designer" part? All I need is some way to track casualities, technological progress, quantity progress and special equipment (like shields/no shields).

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Games like Civ V do this, eh?  I mean, you don't build individual archers, you build a squad of archers (ranged attack, weak against melee) that have offense/defense abilities that decrease as individual archers are beaten to death.  Can't your fleet be something similar with an overall offense/defense, sight range, and speed based on its composition?

 

You're going to tell me that I need to play a real 4X space game, aren't you? sad.png

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