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cdosrunO1

Web Programming Proffession [ Need Advice] -

29 posts in this topic

Hi ,

 

   I'm a college student studying computer science and I am really lost as to what kind of programming I want to do. I wanted to try making money from home with programming, but it wasn't until now that I realized that I have no idea how to do it. Some friends have told me that web design/programming is a really good way to get started on this front, but I don't know how to do that. I've been doing code academy and I know some stuff from years ago (like HTML, javascript and CSS). 

 

My questions are:

   - Can I really be a web programmer that works from home and make a decent amount of money or am I just kidding myself? 

   - If the first is true, what languages should I learn to get started?

   - What jobs about web design should I look for? 

 

 

I know this may see a bit too much, but it seems as though there are a lot of people with experience here that I think can help me.

 

~ C Dos ~ 

 

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Thanks. 

 

I have just one more question, since you are strong in python and have done web development, do you see Django taking over PHP in the future? I worked for a web team at one point and the tech. lead kept telling us that PHP is being fazed out for other languages like Django or Ruby on Rails. I'm just asking to know if PHP is really something I should learn. 

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Yes, I definitely see PHP being phased out very soon. In the computer science community, PHP is considered a very bad language. I think these are the best languages / frameworks for backend web development, personally:

  • Ruby + Ruby on Rails
  • Python + Flask / Django

If you go the Python route, learn Python and Flask first, then learn Django. You need to go through a lower-level framework (like Flask) to understand the "why" of Django. I've also heard good things about Pyramid. Python and Ruby are far better languages than PHP (for learning purposes), because you can do a variety of things with them (not just web development), and they have clearer syntax.

Edited by superman3275
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Despite how much fun is made of it, PHP. It is by the far the most prevalent language on the Web, PHP jobs pay a ton, and honestly it works just fine for what it does. There's zero evidence that it's going to go away any time soon; quite the opposite.

A good programmer however knows a wide variety of languages and frameworks so you should have a wide base of experience of with PHP plus you could be familiar with C#/ASP, Python, Java, Go, Ruby, and so on. Learn at least one new language every year.

Come on. First of all, just because a lot of people use PHP doesn't make it good. Second of all, PHP doesn't pay a ton! Seriously! Python / Ruby pays way more than PHP, PHP devs are a dime a dozen. PHP is a bad language:

 

http://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/

http://blog.codinghorror.com/the-php-singularity/

http://webonastick.com/php.html

Edited by superman3275
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I use C# and ASP.Net (which is basically HTML, and JavaScript)  for my all of my web programming.

 

If you have a valid college email address you could go to https://www.dreamspark.com/ and download VS 2013 for free to play around with it.

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I use C# and ASP.Net (which is basically HTML, and JavaScript)  for my all of my web programming.

 

If you have a valid college email address you could go to https://www.dreamspark.com/ and download VS 2013 for free to play around with it.

You can also just use Visual Studio Express, if you're not a student.

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Come on. First of all, just because a lot of people use PHP doesn't make it good.


Who cares? A language being good or not is an irrelevant nerdcore detail that businesses - the things that give you money in exchange for work - don't care about.

A lot of people care. I guess if you only care about money and delivering crappy code, then PHP is fine. But some of us, you know, like to have fun when programming.

 

 

C++ is a terrible language and yet it's also the single hands-down best language to use for AAA game development. C# has all kinds of mistakes and nonsense in it that we're stuck with since it's the dominant general-purpose applications language (and the second most widely-used Web language). Python had to have an incompatible 3.0 release because of the mistakes made in older versions. Ruby has gone through several major upheavals. JavaScript is widely considered even worse than PHP and yet is unavoidable in Web development. Java is widely hated by many experienced Java programmers. Perl is considered super difficult to read even by its proponents and also had its own failed incompatible redesign in attempt to fix it. Shell script is so bad that practically every Linux programmer has written their own shell.

Alright, let's debunk all this bullshit you just made up:

 

C++ is a terrible language and yet it's also the single hands-down best language to use for AAA game development.

Have you ever programmed in C++? You probably just wrote terrible code.

 

C# has all kinds of mistakes and nonsense in it that we're stuck with.

It probably does. All languages have some bad stuff, it's just that PHP has more bad stuff.

 

Python had to have an incompatible 3.0 release because of the mistakes made in older versions.

This is untrue. It's obvious you have no idea how the Python ecosystem works, or how programming language updates work in general.

 

Ruby has gone through several major upheavals.

If you think updates are bad, you're too new to programming smile.png. See what I did there?

 

Javascript is widely considered even worse than PHP and yet is unavoidable in Web development.

Sources, please? You just made this up.

 

Java is widely hated by many experienced Java programmers.

Yeah, whatever, keep up with the "I'm just going to make stuff up without sources to prove my point."

 

Perl is considered super difficult to read even by it's proponents and also had it's own failed incompatible redesign in attempt to fix it.

You should really stop saying stuff about language ecosystems which you just read on some blog without actually programming in that language.

 

Shell script is so bad that practically every Linux programmer has written their own shell.

Now this is just absurd.

 

 

All languages suck and are terrible, all libraries and frameworks are terrible, all game engines are terrible, every Web application is terrible, every non-trivial project is chock-full of terrible code, and life goes on.

But some stuff is more terrible than others.

 

 

A tiny bit of active research belies that. The languages all pay around the same. A PHP programmer will average around ~$95,000/year, roughly the same for Python or Ruby or C# or C++ or so on. An entry-level junior programmer will make less. An experienced senior developer will make more.

Said experienced Web developer will know PHP, Python, C#, C, Perl, JavaScript, SQL, shell script, how to set up and secure a LAMP server from scratch, and the average air speed of an unladen swallow. They'll be able to tell you why PHP sucks, why Python sucks, why C sucks, why Linux sucks, why databases sucks, why the Internet sucks, why vacuum cleaners suck, and then will go get the job done in whichever technology is used by the rest of the team without whining about it.

Since the OP is asking about how to get started, though, my answer remains: if you want to jump into the Web quickly, start with PHP and diversify your language knowledge after, but diversify it as much as you possibly can as soon as you can. 

Seriously, right now you're just spouting off dribble to prove a nonexistent point. He wants to get started. PHP is a bad language to get started in. It teaches bad practices and has bad design (I actually cited sources for that, you didn't). Hey, I can quote Bjarne Stroustrup too!

It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to students that [sic] have had prior exposure to BASIC; as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration. - Bjarne Stroustrup

Same thing with PHP. If you don't agree with that, you're too new to programming smile.png. See how your ad hominem attack breaks down?

 

I would say that it's harder to get started with PHP, because it's very non-intuitive and it's not a general-purpose language.

Edited by superman3275
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In my experience, there are two options when working with web dev: get a job or go freelance.

 

Getting a job is probably easier if you have something to show, a small portfolio if you will. So you'd need to have something to show, and what I did was creating sites for my family's and friends' businesses, for free (3 websites, to be exact).

 

Going freelance is harder, not as safe as a regular job, but can pay better. I say can because it is not necessarily true, it can take months before you can really rely on it. You'd need a good portfolio as well, to show potential clients, and all the deadlines are usually defined by contract.

 

Still, as someone said already, PHP.

With PHP, you can go autonomous or get a job. It is still the most asked language on interviews for this kind of job. A lot of people make jokes about it, but it is still a strong standard.

 

Secondly, it is good if you can handle yourself with at least one CMS. Be it Joomla, Drupal, Wordpress, or any. Familiarize yourself with the CMSs and a free framework such as Joomla's Gantry and T3 or Wordpress' Sparky. It will help you get nice websites to deliverable states in much less time; especially if you decide to go freelance. That's how I do it. I use Joomla mostly.

Edited by dejaime
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In my experience, there are two options when working with web dev: get a job or go freelance.

 

Getting a job is probably easier if you have something to show, a small portfolio if you will. So you'd need to have something to show, and what I did was creating sites for my family's and friends' businesses, for free.

 

Going freelance is harder, not as safe as a regular job, but can pay better. I say can because it is not necessarily true, it can take months before you can really rely on it. You'd need a good portfolio as well, to show potential clients, and all the deadlines are usually defined by contract.

 

Still, as someone said already, PHP.

With PHP, you can go autonomous or get a job. It is still the most asked language on interviews for this kind of job. A lot of people make jokes about it, but it is still a strong standard.

 

Secondly, it is good if you can handle yourself with at least one CMS. Be it Joomla, Drupal, Wordpress, or any. Familiarize yourself with the CMSs and a free framework such as Joomla's Gantry and T3 or Wordpress' Sparky. It will help you get nice websites to deliverable states in much less time; especially if you decide to go freelance. That's how I do it.

Really, PHP is a bad language for beginners to learn. You can also go autonomous or get a job with other languages, but if you learn a different language you have way more hiring opportunities. People only use PHP for the web, and that's the only field you can get a job in with it. People use other languages (like Python or Ruby) for other things, not just web sites. From my experience as a professional freelancer for the past two years, you have more hiring opportunities with Python or Ruby because there are way more uses for them.

 

Also, the OP mentioned learning Django. There's a great Django CMS he can learn if he wants to go that route, although I like to use Flask when I'm using Python as the backend.

Edited by superman3275
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Wow, thanks for all the responses guys.  smile.png

 

I think I'll just stick with Front End since that's my weakest point and learn something like Ruby/Django concerning backend about every other day/week. I already know a bit of PHP so I'm going to try to broaden my horizons with ruby or the python language.

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EDIT: Also, for the record, SeanMiddleditch downvoted me without actually responding to me. That leads me to assume that he doesn't actually have a response, and that he's resorted to downvoting people who he disagrees with.


I most certainly have not downvoted anyone in this conversation. Downvotes can come from you know other people and stuff. Hell, take an upvote.

So far as not responding... I have way better things to do. My points are made and stand well on their own merit and your points are out there, too. Anyone reading this thread can come to their own conclusion about the topic, which has veered far from anything useful to the OP. Getting into an argument on the Internet with someone over something as stupid as this is not useful to you, me, or anyone else. I concede all points and you win and are a better human being than I can ever hope to be. Have a good day.

 

You've got to realize, you were the one who responded to all my arguments saying they were wrong. I'm not just blatantly attacking you out of the blue to make myself feel better, I actually want to ensure that the OP gets the best advice possible. Sorry about assuming that you downvoted me, I just got insta-downvoted and assumed that you'd be the one who'd do it.

Edited by superman3275
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I never said PHP is a great language, and as a C++ programmer I couldn't agree more that it is a bad one. But a quick search for job openings for web development, 6 of the 10 jobs at indeed.co.uk require previous PHP or even full LAMP experience, and that's what I am talking about. Is PHP bad? Yes. Is it dead? Not quite. If he want to get a regular job, his best bet is still learning PHP.

 

About going autonomous, I recommended a CMS. One can create a website using a CMS and visual framework, as I listed above, without having to write a single line of code. That's the productivity one should aim for when going autonomous. No Ruby, Phyton nor PHP.

 

So, coming from someone who actually works with web dev, PHP for a job, a good CMS with good professional templates such as Joomla and Wordpress (and a good pair of shoes for client hunting) if going freelance.

 

PS: Try clicking his reputation, before attacking him out of the blue.

Edited by dejaime
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I never said PHP is a great language, and as a C++ programmer I couldn't agree more that it is a bad one. But a quick search for job openings for web development, 6 of the 10 jobs at indeed.co.uk require previous PHP or even full LAMP experience, and that's what I am talking about. Is PHP bad? Yes. Is it dead? Not quite. If he want to get a regular job, his best bet is still learning PHP.

 

About going autonomous, I recommended a CMS. One can create a website using a CMS and visual framework, as I listed above, without having to write a single line of code. That's the productivity one should aim for when going autonomous. No Ruby, Phyton nor PHP.

 

So, coming from someone who actually works with web dev, PHP for a job, a good CMS with good professional templates such as Joomla and Wordpress (and a good pair of shoes for client hunting) if going freelance.

 

PS: Try clicking his reputation, before attacking him out of the blue.

And, as someone who also does Web dev. (and Software Engineering consulting) freelancing professionally, I'll say that there are plenty of jobs for Python and Ruby, and that I also agree learning how to use a good CMS is useful. Also, the majority of jobs don't require a backend at all, so before learning a backend language you should focus on getting really good with HTML5, CSS3, Javascript, and Jquery.

Edited by superman3275
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PS: Reputation doesn't make you right.

 

I think he meant check his reputation log before accusing him of downvoting you. Also, chill out. I'm sure it's possible to have a civil discussion about PHP and web programming without resorting to ad hominems and accusations (right?)

Edited by Bacterius
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PS: Reputation doesn't make you right.

 

I think he meant check his reputation log before accusing him of downvoting you. Also, chill out. I'm sure it's possible to have a civil discussion about PHP and web programming without resorting to ad hominems and accusations (right?)

 

The reputation thing completely flew over my head, I've edited my post accordingly.

I only started doing the ad hominems as a joke (thus why they were bolded and in the same format as his), because he said:

 

 

If you haven't realized this yet, you're too new to programming.

And he decided to say this:

 

 

So far as not responding... I have way better things to do. My points are made and stand well on their own merit and your points are out there, too. Anyone reading this thread can come to their own conclusion about the topic, which has veered far from anything useful to the OP. Getting into an argument on the Internet with someone over something as stupid as this is not useful to you, me, or anyone else. I concede all points and you win and are a better human being than I can ever hope to be. Have a good day. 

Which boils down to "I actually have a life, you don't have a life. Arguments on internet are dumb and stupid (even though I just started one), and you're dumb and stupid for replying to me because you don't have a life."

 

But I understand your point.

Edited by superman3275
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Just to add to the point - PHP is indeed important to learn and a good starting point.

Just think about the various Content-Manager-Systems out there ...

 

  • WordPress
  • Contao
  • TYPO3
  • Joomla
  • Magento
  • ...

Heck even the most well known Open-Source Forums use PHP don't they (didn't bother with any of them since a long time)?

 

Coding an small Plugin / Extension for any of those is both a good learning point as well as might generate some money if you really find something that are not existing. The good thing is - those are not even Open-Source and free but they're widely used giving you an larger audience and possibly some small Jobs that help you moving forward.

 

However I also second that HTML5, CSS3 and Javascript/jQuery Knowdlege should be equally important in getting to know with.

 

Python, Perl and the like are certainly lovable as well especially as those are closer to the Unix-Feeling and integrate with many Tools and Environments easily or how should I say it... er ... whatever. I'd still place them third just closely behind the others ...

  1. HTML5, CSS3, jQuery/Javascript
  2. PHP, SQL
  3. Python, Perl and the like.

Keep in mind that you can work/learn Multi-Threaded biggrin.png and not only Single Threaded.

Just don't use to many Cores, give them proper Priorities and let them shift from time to time.

 

Edit:

 

5am time to sleep.

 

Text sounds weird. Whatever :D 

Edited by justyourimage
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A PHP programmer will average around ~$95,000/year, roughly the same for Python or Ruby or C# or C++ or so on. An entry-level junior programmer will make less. An experienced senior developer will make more.

 

I agree with most of what you said apart from this.   An Rails developer is going to get around 50% more than a PHP developer at least here in London and also in SF.  Also an entry level Rails developer will have no trouble earning more than a veteran PHP developer.
The only PHP developers that are earning the truly massive bucks are the so called "full stack" developers and whilst many claim to be one of these, the HR departments of many Google, Yahoo and Amazons will tell you that they are as rare as rockinghorse shit.

 

 

This is all by the by of course the OPs original question was can he make decent money as a freelance web developer and the truth is yes.  Just learn a framework such as Rails or Django or an equivalant in PHP(Cake?) or whateve language and framework you prefer and write some web apps.  At the end of the day most clients won't care or even understand what a language or a framework actually is.

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Although I'm getting heavily downvoted, I still stand by my opinion that Python or Ruby is a better first language for people looking to get into web development. PHP has it's merits, however I've found that it teaches bad practices and can impair new web developers ability to learn other languages / frameworks.

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@superman3275

 

A lot of the comments you made statements against for the status of different language can be backed up within an article on this very site. http://www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_/technical/general-programming/what-language-do-i-use-r3318

 

As a programmer in C++, C#, Ruby, Java, JS, PHP, Pearl, and a half dozen others. Every language has its pros and cons. However, your comments came off as just bias towards your preferred language. I am very good in programing in Java, but I do not like doing. Additionally, PHP is not the worst language to learn because it is one of the easiest to link database (SQL) and webpages.

 

As for the amount of money you earn being less with PHP compared to other languages I would expand your search. Hospitals and medical billing companies are hiring programs with experience in PHP and Java for 80-105k salaries.

Edited by Navyman
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@superman3275

 

A lot of the comments you made statements against for the status of different language can be backed up within an article on this very site. http://www.gamedev.net/page/resources/_/technical/general-programming/what-language-do-i-use-r3318

 

As a programer in C++, C#, Ruby, Java, JS, PHP, Pearl, and a half dozen others every language has its pros and cons. However, your comments came off as just bias towards your preferred language. I am very good in programing in Java, but I do not like doing. Additionally, PHP is not the worst language to learn because it is one of the easiest to link database (SQL) and webpages.

 

As for the amount of money you earn being less with PHP compared to other languages I would expand your search. Hospitals and medical billing companies are hiring programs with experience in PHP and Java for 80-105k salaries.

I'm not biased towards my "preferred language." I program in a variety of languages and like different elements of each one. The whole point is that PHP is consistently bad. Go back and read my sources. So far, I've been the only one here to actually back up my claim about PHP being bad with real sources. You guys are just having existential arguments with yourselves ("All languages are bad, thus all languages are the same"). You can link databases and webpages with all languages, and in fact I'd argue Ruby, .NET, and Python are better for interfacing with databases because of their (very powerful) ORM's.

 

On the whole job thing, that's anecdotal evidence. The **majority** of PHP jobs pay less than jobs in Python or Ruby. I could probably find a niche market where people get paid $500,000 a year for Python programming (if I looked hard enough), but that doesn't mean the majority of Python jobs pay $500,000 a year.

 

(Also, you spelled programmer wrong.)

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