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Sage13

Game programming CHALLENGE!!!!!!!

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I just couldn''t help but to read through all the replies that Sage13 has received and all I can say is that you people aren''t helping worth crap. Im not saying that I have the answers but after insulting him, which is fine for a short while, the topic should die if its that stupid. And now it seems as if people are helping him but they are giving the wrong answers. He already said he is not a programmer so mentioning linked list and cell shading proabaly isn''t going to make sense. He asked for an approach on the conceptual level. By that I think it means something along the lines of "to simulate the stage deforming, have the stage as an actual object that the fighters are on, then when a spot gets destroyed(hit with a super move), the stage changes and the fighers are fighting on the same object, but its different."

If you dont wanna help him then don''t. But if you are give him the help he asked for.

Just my 2 cents.

"Ogun''s Laughter Is No Joke!!!" - Ogun Kills On The Right, A Nigerian Poem.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
ppl are helping but giving the wrong answers? heh
since he is not a programming, he is not a expert that understands what goes on in the development of such a game. what he wants to make is an fmv game, that is truly dynamic. an impossiblity to do since it would require drawing the animation at all angles with all possible lighting (including when the opponent is blocking light). for a leaf rotating it at only 1 degree it woudl take at least 360*360*360 frames of animation just for all the rotations in the x y z planes. now lets turn this into real memory numbers since you shoudl understand that. assuming 3 special moves. approxmiatle 15 frames per second (not too bad, but vastly lowerthen anything you would get running a 3d system) the animation frame for a charater at 128x64 for decently sized charaters at 320x240. and at 32bit (why not, lets go for full alpha blending capabilities since we are crazy right?)

360*360*360=46656000 single frame with all rotations
(assumes all moves lats approx 1 second on average)
46656000*15*6attacks*4specials=16796160000 frames of animation
16796160000*(128*64*4(size of frame))=550376570880000 bytes
or 524880000 megabytes
or 550376 gigabytes
or 550 terabytes

ouch, thats a lot of hd space, but thats ok, you can by ppl the hardware to store all that since you care not about the expense

damn and we still did not get to the second character, shadows(which would be 46656000 times the amount of data for the character assuming a SINGLE light rotated around the character at a FIXED distance), the background, forground, and many other things. even with a 1000 to 1 compression (which is pusing even sane compression levels) it would take at least 550 gigabytes
without any shadow data per character. ram is cheap, but seriously who has enough ram for something this monster of a demo?

but of course you knew that and still think using 3d cell shading techniques (like jet set radio) or just normal techniques (like powerstone) is no good? maybe you should try them before shunning 3d.

EbonySeraph:
since it is painfully obvious you know nothing about coding and think that ppl suggest doing the game in 3d is the wrong answer maybe you should learn about programming and limitations of 2d artwork which while nicer is meant for fmv style things not dynamic things. of course you said it yourself he is not a programmer, but he hosudl learn the limitations what he is trying to design, face it 3d is the way to go with this project. why do you think powerstone was done in 3d? it has anime looking characters and great dynamic playfields. heck you can throw chairs, break tables and actually use the field to your advantage.

maybe i ranted too much, heh but the futility of what you are trying to accomplish sage13 who is 19 is just laughable. see i pointed out facts based on your post, not too many opions in there.

- groof

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(sigh), sorry, I''m the type who can''t be told what''s impossible. Many things throughout history have been said to be, but are alwalys proven otherwise eventually.
I think ebony''s got the right idea, if you don''t have anything particularly helpful in the way of finding the solution to this, please don''t add negative "cant, impossible, illiogical" stuff. I percived it, and so I know it''s possible. Since alot of people think it''s crazy and or otherwise unwise, I guess I''ll just be the first one to do it heh. Lots of money, time, and people with vision are going to be needed, but as long as I have the goal in mind, all that will come.
Thanx again to the acutal usful input.

peace

-Sage13


"What troubles me is not the way things are, but the way people think things are"-Ep

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quote:
Original post by Sage13
I percived it, and so I know it''s possible.

Fascinating. A crock of shit, of course, but a fascinating thought nevertheless.

Let''s rephrase this, though: it''s not possible given current technology. We''re not trying to limit your imagination; heck, people are telling you exactly how you can achieve what you want, but you choose to disregard their (relatively) expert advice. That is the peril of the closed mind.

And many perceived, and died with nothing more than their perceptions.

EbonySeraph: You seem to have an uncanny knack for sticking your foot in your mouth with uninformed, broad proclamations. Don''t worry, though, you''ll learn with time (especially once you get out of high school).



I wanna work for Microsoft!

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Sage,

Don''t take this wrong as many people have thrown everything at you already, BUT..it really sounds to me like you are one of those fella''s that shoots the moon, regardless of the warnings.

As a artist I will tell you that I do not know a person that would want to work for you. It is impossible to generate the artwork you require in this lifetime, unless you have a really huge team lined up, and I mean huge.

I''m not trying to say you''re a some dumb, sick person but just that it''s come the time in your life to learn about being practical and learn from others mistakes.

If you wanted to do something that would take a few years, I''d say sure...as a personal project to satisfy your own curiosities sure...but you are aiming WAY too high.

Instead of facing the disappointment of a project failed, use the time to do something that might actually come to some point.

Hey just my two cents....I was young once too.

All the best for the future, and if you do ever pull this off, you''ll be richer than you can imagine. ID couldn''t even do this.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
hey sage13, just because you can perceive something does not make it possible. for instance, i perceive that you are only 13 years of age. you already stated that you are 19, but i still percieve you are only 13. you cant tell me otherwise because you can say something is impossible because throughout history people have done things thought impossible. by all means say it is impossible you are only 13 years of age. it dont matter. since i percieve you are. hmmm, i think i am gonna go get that 550 terabyte ram stick and 98772 terabyte though they do not exist yet, it dont matter. since i will need them to play your game, if you ever even start to make it. Heck your idea has been made. try some of the fmv fighters on sega 32x cd. those were wonderfully dynamic in a linear sort of way.

its one thing if you were doing something thought impossible by todays technology. in fact what you envision is not going to be possible for quite a long time. I hardly see anyone with the patience even in a large group to draw all those frames of animation. since you really cant have multiple people doing different characters since that would destroy the style of the art. of course you dont mind that and we wont go into that since you will magically be able to get artists that can handle that with the massive grant to fund your project. Also since todays consumer hardware cant handle that, you will be shipping the game with hardware that can correct? since i am epecting it is a techdemo it will be free for all? if so sign me up for one since it would be nice to get all that hardware. maybe then i can make a virtual world like in the 13th floor, while you have your 2 character demo with one arena.

you have to realize that you are ignoring great advice, and knowledge of todays graphics and what machines can do. 2d art is great for movies and shows when it is not interactive. but 2d art cannot effeciently nor pratically used as a replacement for 3d artwork. why do you think capcom used 3d models in powerstone (which had an anime look and not a cg look)?

also since you mentioned in a post you were using prerendered art which owudl help with the drawing. i hope you did not mean people where goinf to create high quality 3d models and then render them to 2d for use in the game. if so that defeats your goal and simple makes you look more like a moron then a dreamer who may someday show us all how wrong we were.

if you believe this is possible. please explain some details on how it is possible. since you do realize that all forerunners of technology and science prove themselves to others, and get accepted that way. i suggest you learn to code and about computers before you start to make yourself look more ignorent.

- groof
being ignorent and a dreamer is the worst combination because reality dont exist except the one they choose to percieve since thats all they believe.

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quote:
if you don''t have anything particularly helpful in the way of finding the solution to this, please don''t add negative "cant, impossible, illiogical" stuff.


Sage, several ppl have already suggested the best - and in fact ONLY practical method to accomplish this game. 3D!!! I''m not going to restate the arguments of all the other posters against 2D, but I agree with almost all of them The reason ppl these days have video cards and stuff these days is so that the COMPUTER can do 60 times a second what an ARTIST would take 2 hours doing. I am a programmer myself, and don''t know too much about artwork, but what I do know is that drawing 500,000 gigabytes of art from scratch would NOT be fun.

My two (NZ) cents worth

---------------

I finally got it all together...
...and then forgot where I put it.

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This sort of post/flamewar seems to happen fairly regularly here on gamedev and other such sites -- someone who doesn''t know quite what he/she is getting into makes some claims or issues a ''challenge'', other people point out why they are going about the problem the wrong way, and then the original person (and often some 3rd party people) get defensive and start telling people they shouldn''t tell others what can and can''t be done because of the Moon Landing, Wright Brothers, or whatever their favorite odds-against story is.

Anyway, I just thought I''d throw two more cents in on this whole issue -- not just this particular post, but all those like it.

Nobody is trying to ''hold you back.'' The GameDev community is generally quite helpful, especially when you consider its large size. Yes, there''s flamewars now and then but nothing like the kind of stuff you find on other similiarly sized web communities.... I admit that some of the posters were particularly rude about the way they told you that your method of implementation is flawed, but don''t get it in your head that these people are somehow the ''Man'' trying to hold you back.. In their own odd way they are trying to help save you a lot of headaches. While these people may not have great social skills, you should look to the core of what they are saying and ask yourself if it makes sense, usually it does.

If you really feel like embarking on this mission despite everyone''s warnings, by all means go ahead, you just might want to keep it somewhat under-wraps. The one thing that is true about the Wright Brothers and others is they didn''t spend a lot of time fighting with naysayers, they just went and forged ahead with their vision. If you can''t be convinced your method is wrong, go prove us wrong, but don''t fight about it in public..Usually the people who spend as much or more time fighting over their vision as working to achieve it are (rightly) labelled crackpots and confined to the dustbin of history. Walk the walk, so to speak.


And then lastly, some practical advice, as various people including myself have mentioned (though I assume you won''t heed our advice at this point), you are really much better off using 3D as a tool for this game, if you ever really want to create it. There are 3D accelerators available right now that support PixelShaders and other features that would allow you to implement a really amazing real-time ''hand-drawn'' look on 3D models, saving you boatloads of time & effort while still delivering the same results. Sure, not everyone has such accelerators, but they certainly will by the time it would take you to finish the game going the 2D route... Why fight with every frame of animation when you can instead put that time and effort into playtesting and great game-play design? Progress is mostly about giving us new tools to do virtually the same old tasks, but better and faster so we have more time to delve into the details..Take advantage of that!

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Ok, now firstly, I am aware that 3D is the best way to go about making a cel animed looking game, but there is only one problem with that, it''s already been done; this has not.
It''s not that the technology dosen''t exists, it''s just that the method has not yet been conceived.

gmcbay: thanx, I know what you mean. Infact the only really mistake I have made is exposing my idea, even still I appriciatce gamedev''s help and always have. Usually whan I have a question, it gets answered no prob, but you must also understand, that I do think in the optimistic way. I am heavy rooted into principles, and I understand how things that you want come about if you push after them with effortless determination and clear goal setting. There is nothing mystic or fantascising about it. It''s the way the universe works.

The amount of art needed is possible to make, infact I think I have a good idea about how that side would work. It''s not very traditional but, it''s worth a try.

As for perception, if you perceive I''m 13 I am in your mind. theres nothing wrong with that. Maybe by general numeric standards I''m not but non-the less that really dosen''t effect what you think. I think that this project is very possible, and the only real obsitcal I see is finding the spirited group of individuals who also have such high asperations.
I''m not trying to arguing who is right or wrong, that''s irrivant becasue it will forever differ from person to person, but I am stating my case that this game and others 10X''s beyond it are possible, not based on current technology, not based on the belif of a few, but based on the solid effords of people with vision. I don''t want to make the next common game ( although I will make servral common games under the service of others) I want to make the next light bulb or ah... the gaming equivilant to that. If that''s crazy, then so be it.

peace


-Sage13

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Guest Anonymous Poster
I''d Use 3d....Much Easier

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