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suliman

no of ammotypes

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Hi

Im doing a 2D-rpg inspired by fallout, syndicate, STALKER, walking dead and the hunger games.

You scavange and explore and there is a lot of ammo types (i use real weapons like glock 17, m16a4 etc). I try to keep ammotypes down but its hard:) At least I gave up having realistic ammo 5.56 mm, 7.62mm calibers.

 

But if i look at fallout 3 there was like 15 types as well... Is this frustrating for the player?

 

My plan so far is like this:

 

---Conventional

pistol ammo

revolver ammo

shotguns shells

smg ammo (cannot be same as pistol ammo for balance reasons)

assault rifle ammo (cannot be same as rifle ammo for balance reasons)

rifle ammo

machinegun ammo (preferably not same as AR ammo for balance reasons...)

 

---Special

crossbow bolts

grenades (for launchers)

rockets (for RPGs)

flamer fuel

 

---High tech ammo (each energy weapon uses an amount of joules per shot)

small cell (for pistols, smg)

large cell (for everything else)

 

 

That is 13 already! Does this seem silly to you? The game is single-player or offline (hotseat) two player co-op.

Your thoughts?

 

Right now ammo work like any other item (they take up space in a diablo-like inventory grid). But they stack endlessly. Should player share ammo in co-op? More streamlined but less authentic feel.

Edited by suliman

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13 is a bit high

What you can do is make certain types of ammo usable for multiple weapons.

like grenades go in a grenade launcher and an RPG-launcher.

and bullets into a machine gun and a pistol.

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It really depends on your design goals.

If you're going for the more simulationist aspect, stick to multiple ammo types; that makes part of the challenge of finding a new weapon being that you realize you stockpiled an ammo type it can't use.

To make that apply to a more game-y crowd, consider giving the ammo types properties beyond just their compatibility with a gun. Distance, damage, etc. and then make it possible to mod guns to fire different ammunition.

13 ammo types really isn't all that much, though. The conventional brainless FPS has ~9 guns, each using a unique ammo type, so 13 is pretty close to being within bounds of standard. smile.png

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smg ammo (cannot be same as pistol ammo for balance reasons)
assault rifle ammo (cannot be same as rifle ammo for balance reasons)
machinegun ammo (preferably not same as AR ammo for balance reasons...)

 

My question here is why?  Usually the balance factor here is that guns that use the same ammo but fire more rapidly expend more ammo, and are pretty much self-balancing in that respect.  That would drop you down a few ammo types.   I've seen games fudge balance here by having a pistol do more damage per shot, even though it's shooting the same ammo, and has no real world reason to do more damage.

 

You could also drop small/large cell ammo for the same reason, and just have generic power cells.

 

So lets see, that puts you at:

9mm ammo  instead of pistols and smgs

.50 cal for your revolver and machine gun.

5.56 ammo for rifle and AR ammo.

shotgun shells

crossbow bolts

grenades

rockets

flamer

power cells

Brings you down to 9.  And you can play with how you want to share machine gun ammo, you could have it share 5.56 ammo if you want instead of .50 cal (and the realism here is non-existent in reality the caliber may be the same but the bullets are totally different)

 

You could also make your flamer powered by power cells, it's sort of magic, but it brings down another ammo type.

Edited by ferrous

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In general while playing Fallout I'd carry maybe 2 weapons that required ammo that I would use in combat. Anything other weapons I was probably holding onto intending on selling it later. It wasn't hard to ignore the ammo that I didn't need and if a particular type of ammo is hard to come by then I just made sure not to rely on weapons that use it.

When ammo takes up an inventory slot but you're able to stack it infinitely without concern for weight, you have a different game though. For the most powerful weapons you will probably try to save up the ammo for boss encounters or tough situations and switch between that and the other weapon you find most reliable whenever you have to. I would expect players would be likely to keep stacks of almost all ammo types "just in case" they find they need it.

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I love Half Life 1 and 2, but my biggest beef with those games is when the gave me so much of the same ammo, that I no longer have to conserve and ration out what gun I'm using when.

 

Having different ammo-types and having a very limited amount of each, forces players to use different guns. If the guns themselves require different playstyles, then forcing the player to use different guns forces them to play the game differently, which creates additional enjoyable challenge and presents the players with decisions they have to make ("I'm running low on SMG... should I finish using it, or switch to my revolver where I'm almost full? I don't want to come to any revolver ammo and not be able to pick it up...").

 

I really enjoyed Trespasser (buggy as it was). One of the things they did in that game was that you could only carry two guns (one on your back, one in your hand), and the guns couldn't be reloaded, so you knew you had six bullets in your hand and three on your back, and it really forced you to conserve your ammo.

 

If I was to do it, I'd let players own one of each gun, but have limited inventory space (by ammo-type weight), so a player can fill up his inventory with a hundred grenades if he wants, but have zero room left for pistols. Then, as a map designer, you can still make different types of ammo scarce, but still allow players to make a choice: "Do I discard these two 30-bullet clips for my SMG to pick up that 75-round canister of assault-rifle ammo?".

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.50 cal for your revolver and machine gun

Um... .50 AE = 12.7×32.6mm, whereas .50 BMG = 12.7×99mm. That thingie is 3 times as long.

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When designing systems like this you have to ask yourself what is the goal of the design? Where is your 'fun' coming from, why would I as a player want to actually play the game?

 

I have had lots of fun with games where I picked up 'ammo' or 'energy', and used it in whatever weapon I pull out, and I've had lots of fun where I've bashed open a crate only to find out that it was full of hundreds of rounds of 5.56mm rifle ammo instead of the 7.62mm that the one rifle I could carry was using. And then I've also had loads of fun with some games where I could tape the trigger button down and have the bad-ass auto cannon just keep firing for hours on end.

 

So, what does ammo limits and ammo types add or take away from your game? 

 

For a survival horror kind of game, I honestly kind of like having lots of options and choices. Having ammo come up in sensible real world ways is fun, as is having realistic stashing mechanics. Maybe I'll find a half empty brick of 9mm for my pistol behind the counter of some diner, a fist full of .50cal short in the desk drawer of a sheriff, or a full pallet with thousands of rounds of 5.56mm sitting in the back of a warehouse. It offers a world building aspect, and resource imbalance isn't always a terrible thing in this case. Coming across a million rounds of ammunition that is there for the taking isn't a game breaking event if the user still has to make choices and deal with the effort of trying to move all of that ammo. Maybe the game play will force the player to grab a hundred rounds or less of it and move on.

 

 

Long story short: What is the game world? What do you want the player to do and feel? Answer that first, and then you can start worrying about whether you add "pistol, rifle, shotgun, crossbow bolts" as the options to your game, or whether you grab "The complete ammunitions of the world Reference book" and model a few hundred or thousands of types of rounds.

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.50 cal for your revolver and machine gun

Um... .50 AE = 12.7×32.6mm, whereas .50 BMG = 12.7×99mm. That thingie is 3 times as long.

 

I mentioned that it wasn't realistic in my post, it's not really about realism, just about lowering ammo types.

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Well it matter of balance. But there is some balance ways to get imbalance weapons balanced, by use some extra factors, which also give some more depth to it.

Also give lot of types of weapons it's niche where they can shine in.

 

A P90 or KrissV is the must have in full auto accuracy and range. How to balance that imbalance.

In the case of P90 it got very exotic ammo only used for that PDW and Pistol sibling FN57. For those gamers that go for one shot one kill.   

How ever the Kriss V is .45 ACP that much more regular ammo typ. In that case make that weapon very rare thing to find or very expensive. It ammo is big so less rounds then regulate 9mm SMG. A complex weapon hard to maintain.

 

For Ammo type you got the cheaper reloads which are less effective. But much easy to find. Very use full for trigger happy player with LMG or SMG. You need a kind of ammo type to waist.

Lesser reload 5.56 Nato for full auto carbines like M4.

The even better but rare specialist reloads for DMR.

The stock 5.56 new from fab's much rare becoming 5.56 for long barrel rifle like M16 3 burst.

 

 

Then you can use weapon sway with inertia and sway frequency and recoil handling on weapon weight and length.

With a heartbeat ripple based on stamina state on it. That means that

Pistols are put faster on target with are much more sensitive for recoil.

SMG to are bit heavier but spray due to short and recoil sensitive.

powerful ammo,  more recoil, heavier ammo less ammo to carry .

Long barrel heavier weapon higher power bonus with out added recoil. But higher inertia and slower freq sway.

 

silencer or suppress supersonic ammo. Well are less loud but have a supersonic crack that make them not as silenced as the specialized subsonic weapons.

A MP5SD is specialized weapon with silence mechanics make regular 9mm subsonic and ism very silenced weapon.

ACP .45 is by nature a sub sonic round so doesn't have the sonic crack on suppressor. But very long barrel could change that.

 

This of course need to be worked out. But it's a rough idea I had in mind. 

 

With this you can have several dozen ammo types.

 

Each main type a lower reload and better reloads and even subsonic versions. Then AP and hollow point. Incendiary. Tracer. etc. 

 

Revolver have hold less ammo but are very robust and easy to maintain.

 

The reason I think about this is.

Why are sniper rifles so extreme in accurate when hip fire. The just fire as accurate with sun MOA to where the barrel is pointing. So bullet would not leave the barrel like in CoD and make 45 degree muzzle release way off where it aiming.

 

I think this real thing Sniper recon could have 54kg of full gear. including ammo for and with a M9 M4 M24 and other stuff. So in RL the go for M4 with M24 on the back.

And I don't think its accuracy issue but weapon handling at short ranges and reactive fire.

 

My guess is that if enemy pops up in front of your barrel. No need for balance at 1 to 3 meter its rather easy to aim from perspective a long stick thing at something already in front of barrel.

But in room clearing going in and need a 90 degree aim action to get on to target your in big trouble with Pistol or SMG enemy.

 

A bull pup sniper rifle. Well it comes with balance of having a bit better handling. But a high frequency sway and tad more sensitive for recoil. It is a trade off. 

SVU AS a full auto capable bull pup sniper rifle. Well the 7.62x54R is tad more power full then 7.62Nato. So heavier recoil. with bull pup shortness a high freq sway lesser recoil handling. So even for sniper rifle this full auto do spray with a heavy kick. It has also a heavy wear on the barrel. And its is bit shorter. So all added up a trade off to.

 

The way I played Fallout 3 and stalker call of prypyat is as weapon collector. So a home base would be nice to stack full. And some special collector item weapons. Which would be nice if the where use full to.

 

Also a fan of the Walking dead. To me we are apex predator because we have intelligence to effective hunt. Most predators are lot smarter then there prey.

Our intelligence is at some level we depend on tools. So a Zombie is more something very basic as a extreme downgrade, to something easy to take down. So it is the numbers that make them dangerous or by surprised around corners. But the are a way to give the game a reason to shoot a lot. The majority humanity are to civilized so the might have a problem to adopt to this harsh new situation. The real danger are other people who have adopted and are very territorial. They can be very dangerous even if it just one.

 

To me it make no sense to have a zombie situation in the US and weapons are rare to find.

 

So bulk of the regular ammo is for zombies. The good stuff to give you edge to the more dangerous humans.

Zombies you need fast and accurate to aim weapons. Headshots.

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