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jerry2

MSVC,DEPHI or JAVA?

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In my country,i always can see many controversies about computer languages and compilers.u know,as the tech developing,there r many new technologies now,and they compete with each other.so the controversies r hard to avoid. there r many people who r crazy for JAVA,and they claim the programmers who use JAVA have been as many as C/C++,and JAVA is very very popular in North America.it is even said that a java-programmer can find the job more easilier than C++-programmer.words like these always spread through forums.and many people begin to fluctuate. another situation,some people begin to cry up DEPHI,and oppugn the ability of VC,on many hands:compiling speed,functioning... all these r the doubt for many programmers here.though it may be stupid to compare these tech which have its own feature.but i want to know the fact: 1.if java is so popular as the situaion i mentioned previously? 2.if the capility of VC is poorer than DEPHI and other RAD? if any one can explain the fact,i will be very appreciated. jerry2 Programming,make a whole new world.

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Oi! I sense a flame war coming on. Mmm, keeps you warm during the cold, cold winter.

Compiler speed:
Delphi and VC++ are best (about the same)
Java is a bit slower (15-20% on average)

Jobs:
Probably C++, then Java and finally Delphi (sadly)

RAD:
Definitely Delphi, then Java(*) and VC++ a poor third.

Visual C++ is **not** a RAD tool. It''s the spawn of the devil, and is a pile of pants. Anyone claiming otherwise is just lying, simple as that. I''ve lost count of the amount of bitchin'' I''ve heard about MFC, for good reason! The tools are appalling and it''s full of STUPID idiosyncrasies that have *no reason to exist, other than the developer''s laziness*. Repeat: MSVC sux so much ass it''s almost illegal.

Delphi is probably the best for RAD... except Java offers more for "free", in terms of components... kinda (e.g. with graphics, you get convolution filters and gradient fills built in, stuff like that). Visually designing the two... well, I haven''t come across a nippy, visual design tool for Java yet (Forte and JBuilder are dog-slow and ugly on my system), while Delphi is really quick. Incidentally, C++ Builder is much more of a RAD tool than MSVC++.

Right, what''s next for slagging off?

Functionality: Delphi has the quickest compilation cycle (i.e. speed to compile when clicking button). Next it''s C++, finally Java (I think... I can''t remember, though. Both are still far too slow for any large scale project).

C++ gets support for new technologies very quickly. However, there''s support for Delphi from the Delphi JEDI project site, who convert stuff to Delphi quite quickly. Next up, it''s Java... well, who gives a damn about Java. It''s a toy language without pointers, and no real projects are written in it. Use C# instead.

You can spend all day using MSVC++ and still not figure out how to change the background colour of a listbox (for example). At least with Delphi and Java you can simple stuff like this easily. MSVC++ (well, with MFC) is a demon from hell that deserves to burn forever!

I''m confused... I see a column for "topic starter", but where''s the one for "fire starter"?

Alistair Keys

P.S. Controversial enough for you?
P.P.S. I''m using Java for my Honours project, and mostly joking here. I can''t wait to see how this topic progresses(!)

Final note: I''m not going to post any more replies to this thread, since I''m afraid I''ll end up getting death threats.

"There are two kinds of people, those who finish what they start and so on."
-- Robert Byrne

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quote:
Original post by Alimonster
Compiler speed:
Delphi and VC++ are best (about the same)
Java is a bit slower (15-20% on average)

Jobs:
Probably C++, then Java and finally Delphi (sadly)

RAD:
Definitely Delphi, then Java(*) and VC++ a poor third.



I completely agree here. Though currently, with the rise of Web Application Server products, like IBM WebSphere and BEA Weblogic, Java developers are indeed in high demand. The hard part is finding the companies that need them.

quote:

Visual C++ is **not** a RAD tool. It''s the spawn of the devil, and is a pile of pants. Anyone claiming otherwise is just lying, simple as that.


That''s Great! Yes, Visual C++ is not truly a RAD tool. It does have some RAD tools inside of it, but that''s not the program''s bread and butter. If you want to use a Microsoft RAD Tool, use Visual Basic

quote:

Next up, it''s Java... well, who gives a damn about Java. It''s a toy language without pointers, and no real projects are written in it. Use C# instead.



That''s not necessarily true. In the gaming world, yes, there are very few Java based full sized games. In the business world, Java is everywhere. From IDE''s to Web Technologies, Java has a strong presence.

So to answer jerry2''s question, Java is popular here in North America, but only in certain fields. In the Web space, Java is extremely popular. In general business, not so popular. As for VC vs Delphi for RAD, there really is no comparison there. VC is not a true RAD tool, so Delphi will naturally outperform VC in that respect.

-----------------------------
kevin@mayday-anime.com
http://games.mayday-anime.com

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to Alimonster:
despite perhaps u won''t read it again,but i still want to say.at first,i thank u for the opinion.but u mistake my purpose.i don''t want to hold a disputation,and i just want to know the fact.(i want to ensure the fact isn''t so exaggerated as some one say)i know the stupity of the disputation like these,so i won''t give any bomb.


to grasshopa55:
thank u for yr explanation.i have got it.but i want to clarify one thing:i exactly know vc is not a RAD,Umm..and i don''t think RAD is benefit to programmers.

if any one else have yr opinion,pls give it to me.thank u.but as u c,i won''t debate it with others,so don''t fear,and i think forum is place for us to discuss,right?


jerry2
Programming,make a whole new world.

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Don''t forget the root of the word "disputation" is "dispute"

C# is next phase in Visual Basic - Java like yes - but why open yourself up to assimilation? Microsoft would love for Java developers to switch to C# - but it''s not likely. From accounts I''ve read C# will be taken up by the VB set. Remember Microsoft defines cross-platform as compatibility with W9x and WNT.

C++ and Java and you won''t go wrong.

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Well I have to agree with Alimonster in all terms ... apart from the advice to use C#...

I am currently at the University of Wuerzburg and here they 'produce' Java programmers ... like in nearly all the other Universities of Germany. This has nothing to do with the qualities of Java.... Java is just an esay porgramming language.. The students don't have to face any of the bigger problems, like real pointers, memory management and java has a large library... So they can concentrate on learning object orientated programmig.

Java is popular, but MS wants to stop it .. with their new basic...

I am not interested in this battle at all...
since there is always a job for a C++ programmer

Edited by - TheMummy on November 16, 2001 12:21:36 PM

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*Breaking the promise at the end of my post and posting again*

Hi folks! I thought I''d better point out the C# thing wasn''t serious. I don''t mind Java, and it can only get faster. I was just being contentious for the hell of it, because the conversation was going that way.

Java''s getting better with games programming, what with Java3D and all. Check out Why Java Can Be Used For Games. It''s certainly food for thought... also, check out this cool game that uses Java3D: RoboForge, by Liquid Edge Games. Java3D looks like it could be handy for games. We''ll see, I guess. The main problem with Java is that its GUI components aren''t exactly lightning quick... God, how can something make GDI seem nippy?

.Net seems to be Microsoft''s way of taking over the world. They probably had a checklist of free stuff, like:

Unix - nah, people won''t allow it
Linux - nah, same deal
The Internet - perfect! Let''s call it .Net
Java - dammit, we don''t control that. Let''s create our own version!

...and so on.

Also, the licensing scheme seems pretty silly. Anyway, I''m off again. Bye, y''all!

Alistair Keys

"There are two kinds of people, those who finish what they start and so on."
-- Robert Byrne

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quote:
Original post by jerry2
there r many people who r crazy for JAVA,and they claim the programmers who use JAVA have been as many as C/C++,and JAVA is very very popular in North America.it is even said that a java-programmer can find the job more easilier than C++-programmer.words like these always spread through forums.and many people begin to fluctuate.

but i want to know the fact:
1.if java is so popular as the situaion i mentioned previously?
2.if the capility of VC is poorer than DEPHI and other RAD?



Actually, in most of the job offer that I receive from Jobboom and Monster, (btw, I''m in North America ) most people seem to look for C/C++ and some look for Delphi. Java shows up sometimes but most people either look for C/C++ or Delphi some perl also but mainly C/C++. Anyhow, all this to say that I find that Delphi and VB for quick little helper apps is good. Heck, WebExpert from Visicom Media is made using Delphi and it''s pretty good( and no, I''m not saying that just because I know someone working there ). All this to say, it all depends on the company you work for. Most of them will have a langage of preference and that''s what you have to use so being well versed in many languages will help you out in the long run.



"And that''s the bottom line cause I said so!"

Cyberdrek
Headhunter Soft
A division of DLC Multimedia

Resist Windows XP''s Invasive Production Activation Technology!

"gitty up" -- Kramer

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Umm...OK.it''s clear.some people seem to be extreme,and they begin to use their extreme opinion to affact others.so the forum is blur.i think,u r right.

maybe we can discuss in a quiet mood£¬not too athrill?

about using java for game,i want to ask a question.

it is said that java is eximious for web and other network server,but it is not good,even awful,for the desktop,platform,application,and program like these,right?
so java is not appropriate to pc game,but it can be a good choice for web games,or other network games?

is it right?

jerry2
Programming,make a whole new world.

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Jerry2,

Actually Java is getting much better in terms of desktop application use. As for gaming, at its current state, Java is not fast enough, but with Sun''s new Java Gaming API, it may soon become a very viable option. Currently games written in Java are used on the Web, but that shouldn''t stop you from trying to write a desktop game application. If you keep it small, something like a Desktop Adventure, or a card game, these should be alright, just don''t try to do anything that requires a fast frame rate. So to answer your question, Java is viable for desktop gaming, but its overall applications are minimal.

-----------------------------
kevin@mayday-anime.com
http://games.mayday-anime.com

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