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Hi guys, well, I'm new here at this community. I entered because I want to ask you if you can help me with some sort of doubts about game programming.

The thing is that I want to develop an MMORPG with 2D graphics. You know, an action RPG but Online (client & server connection) so I'm guessing what's the best technology to start learning. I already know Java, but the basics and the classic API, I've never tried any game programming framework. I heard that libGDX and LWJGL are such good things and quite enough to develop the kind of game that I want, but I'm not sure that if it's better to me to start working with C# and tryout a better engine like Unity or that kind.

 

And I would like to ask if you have any video-tutorials about making a game like I want that can help me a lot.

 

thank you so much!

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You want to make an MMORPG? That's cool. Show us the funding you've secured, and your abilities with programming and networks.

 

An MMORPG is something you'll never make in this scenario (Unless you've got a decade, and a lot of money to sit around learning this stuff).

 

If you really are capable of making an MMORPG, you would already know how. Start with Pong, and perhaps make it multiplayer (Over LANs if you don't want to do that port forwarding stuff).

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Moving to For Beginners.

 

Online games are much harder than local games. Since you're talking about basics like rendering frameworks I suggest you don't worry about online play until you've mastered the basics of creating a game.

 


I heard that libGDX and LWJGL are such good things and quite enough to develop the kind of game that I want, but I'm not sure that if it's better to me to start working with C# and tryout a better engine like Unity or that kind.

All of them are good options, but they have different types of work needed.

 

If you go with either of the libraries you will need to build most of the game-related systems yourself. That will mean you spend a lot of time learning about low-level systems. If you don't have a good guide or mentor it can also mean a lot of time floundering, or not knowing about standard practices and instead building whatever you can imagine which may be more difficult to build or difficult to use than necessary.

 

Tools like Unity, GameSalad or GameMaker Studio provide a lot of pre-built game functionality letting you spend more time building your game rather than building infrastructure. However, as a side effect you will likely know less about the details of how things work under the hood. You get your game built far more quickly using off-the-shelf parts, but you may not have a good understanding of how those parts work.

 

Neither is wrong, and a lot depends on your goals.  Some options can help you reach your goals -- whatever they are -- faster than others.

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You want to make an MMORPG? That's cool. Show us the funding you've secured, and your abilities with programming and networks.

 

An MMORPG is something you'll never make in this scenario (Unless you've got a decade, and a lot of money to sit around learning this stuff).

 

If you really are capable of making an MMORPG, you would already know how. Start with Pong, and perhaps make it multiplayer (Over LANs if you don't want to do that port forwarding stuff).

Adding onto the cynicism here....

Lets also take a look at your understanding of processes and pipelines. Lets see how well you can understand data structures and data bases. Oh and while we are at it, lets see how good you are at algorithms.

 

 

Something helpful now.

Realistically... stop while you are ahead. You are in absolutely no shape nor stature to even start at writing the first line of code for an MMO. There -is- one tutorial. But even that is completely out of your scope from what I am reading. And I'll go ahead and appologize from the two unhelpful responces you've probably gotten immediately, but this is a very common question on this forum. This sort of question goes absolutely no where quickly besides a ten kilometer deep hole located in the mantel of mercury, and you are trying to get to Torronto Canda in a week. It's not happening like that.

Start small man. There is too much you don't know right now, and just knowing the basics of a langauge does not mean you are a programmer. It just means you're getting your feet wet with a water  hose before you step in a kiddie pool on your way to the ocean.

 

And I really can't even tell you were to begin to be honest. The concepts of an MMO is built with everything you know from a Bachelors in computer science.

Edited by Tangletail

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Creating an RPG, even a smaller one (10 hours instead of 80+ hours), is quite a daunting task for a lone developer. The amount of content needed for even a small RPG is staggering, even though the programming might not be as complex as for some other game genres.

 

And note, I am not talking about anything "Online" yet. Let alone "MMO". I am totally in agreement with the other guys in this thread. Follow this list if you want to get anywhere:

 

1. Banish the thought you will ever, ever create what 80% of people understand when they read "MMO"... that is massive amount of concurrent players interacting in a single instance, massive amount of content, and so on.

If you are not working at a VERY LARGE studio that is working on such a title, that is. And these are massive projects, and given the track record of past MMORPG projects, less and less of these will be made in the future (which is good, the world can only support so many active MMORPGs... as opposed to other RPGs people burn through in weeks, these things are built to engage players for years, which leaves little room for playing multiple MMORPGs at the same time).

 

If you want to start your own, you better be a billionaire playboy with millions to just burn. And I mean "burn" literally, chances are pretty bad you see a return on investment, not unless your MMORPG is so revolutinairy and good that Everquest, WoW and all the clones pale in comparison.

 

2. Put your "Online" aspirations to the side for now... they are quite achievable for a lone dev, or better a small team, but you are not ready yet for that. You have more than enough to learn otherwise.

 

3. Start creating singleplayer games. Better start with simpler ones. Work your way up.

 

 

These questions you put up there would answer themselves if you did your homework in advance... does it matter to your Online Game Project you start in 5+ years if you create your simple pong or pacman clones today in Java or C#?

Of course not. Ideally you are able to learn and program in multiple languages, and while doing so, you will find a) the language you like better, and b) the framework best suited to your use case.

 

 

 

Trust me, you are about 5 years to early for creating an Online RPG (lets put the "MMO" monicker to rest right here)... maybe 3 years if you are able to spend A LOT of time on learning, or can team up with other people and thus concentrate on one specialization.

 

But we are talking years before you could even think about being productive creating something so complex as an online game.... before you would get no traction at all as you would just run into problems every step of the way.

Trust me, been there, done that smile.png

Edited by Gian-Reto

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Frankly, the negative responses here are disturbing.

Considering we can all point to game challenges wherein groups as small as 3 using only tools for creating assets go from a few words to concept to design, production, and completed multiplayer games in as little as 2 days - shows how dated the notions of multi-million dollar startup with teams of tens or hundreds working years to build a game.

Yes, these are professional developers, but they - too- began not knowing where to begin.  So the road is there.  But some of you are telling someone it is impossible to walk down it despite others doing so every day.

I think that says more about those making the responses than the one asking where to begin.

..
And To JS_means_JackSparrow.

What you need to learn depends entirely on what you intend to produce.

The information you've given is a fairly wide array..
2D, Action, Multiplayer(or Online)

That could be as low as...
PHP acting as a game server, delivering to JavaScript as UI.

Or it could be a dedicated server and client as compiled executibles.

Creating a game is easy, children are doing it. . and people barely literate can download Unreal or Construct and make a game that works, in very little time.
The difficulty comes in creating a game that draws the play from a secondary source, the server, and presents it in various forms to multiple clients.. presenting the actions of each client to the others as well.

Now at the Low end, this isn't really a problem.
You can probably find a tutorial that uses PHP, MySQL and Javascript to create just such a game, and modify it to what you want.

But at the high end, you have some work to do.
There ARE options that reduce the workload down to more-or-less, assembling assets and scripting events.. such as Hero Engine, but they are not as easy to access or use as standard game engines.. HE for example, will allow you to build the game, and has the back end to handle the networking, accounts, billing, etc.. but you have to have a Finished game ready to play before they will consider you allowing anyone to actually play it. (so you have to Pay for a seat for each tester).

..
More and more specific information will help people direct you to the tools that will help you most.
 

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Frankly, the negative responses here are disturbing

When did honesty become negative? 

 

When someone hears MMO they think World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy, and other massive games like that. I know the making a 2D RPG is possible as I watched Allegro users make mini 2D RPGs off and on while I was at the site. I've also seen people make small online games where it is from 2 -16 multiplayer which isn't MMO. Then you get into whether the online play will be PvP or Co-op like Guild Wars. They are just being honest with him. 

 

To me, just listing tools for him is the equivalent of giving him the rope to hang himself. He would need to have someone that focuses only on the server/client code to battle anything that comes up. He would have to pay a hefty sum for a dedicated server, but that usually includes people that make sure the server stays up. Haven't even gotten into the marketing of it, as no one aims to make a MMORPG and leave it up to word of mouth to promote it (also pricey). 

 

Is what he wants doable? Sure with a small team, but it will be a very big and serious challenge. Are the replies negative? Nope, they are just telling him the truth about planning to make an MMORPG be it 2D or 3D. 

 

Comparing making games with an engine by challenged individuals to a project of making a MMORPG is also on the ridiculous side, in my opinion.

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Frankly, the negative responses here are disturbing

When did honesty become negative? 

 

 

Telling someone a thing is "Impossible" when others do it as a daily course, is not being Honest, it is being Negative.
Particularly when the Description the OP actually gave of their idea is something Most of us could throw together over a weekend given the graphic and sound assets.

Instead of responding to the actual question though, every response took the acronym MMO and ran with it, as though he/she had asked how to make the next WoW or EQ.

You "When someone hears MMO they think World of Warcraft"
You "He would need to have someone that focuses only on the server/client code to battle anything that comes up. He would have to pay a hefty sum for a dedicated server"
JS "2D graphics. You know, an action RPG but Online"


You "small online games where it is from 2 -16 multiplayer which isn't MMO"
Correct.
Online Game can mean a game of Any number of users.
MMO (the game category) references a game that allows upward of a hundred concurrent users.

But the difference between them from a Creation standpoint ended with the need to write socket handling long-hand.
Now you can use the same code to handle a library or module that does the dirty work, whether it is dealing with a 1-1 message app or the combined financial transactions of Europe.
Other limitations tend to be due to hardware, and are easier to control than allowing the user to log in in the first place, by simply limiting how much traffic is in a given location.

You "To me, just listing tools for him is the equivalent of giving him the rope to hang himself."
I am forced at this comment to wonder why you are here.
If you think that learning where to go to find more information on a subject is Harmful to those wishing to learn...
Why would you be in a forum dedicated to those looking to learn to create games, and those willing / able to offer help in that direction?

As to What Tools I suggested.. I welcome clarification on how any of them is a harmful.

A reference to PHP, MySQL, and Javascript.
Maybe he/she will create another Bad Web game to add to the mountain of them?
..but in the process learns logic operators, functions, objects, referencing externals, database fundamentals with SQL (and hopefully PDO).

The other thing I mentioned were Engines... two of them specifically.
Construct
Which is capable of quality games, but is more useful in teaching the fundamentals of how a game is structured, events causing actions causing functions. input on a key by key basis...
Basically taking someone from a point of "I know games exist" to "I know how games operate in general terms, but don't know how to write the code to make any of it happen."

And Unreal Engine.
Which is currently used by Lionhead Studios, Square Enix, nCSoft and dozens of other AAA studios, but can be used as a starting point for absolute beginners as well.
 

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Instead of responding to the actual question though, every response took the acronym MMO and ran with it, as though he/she had asked how to make the next WoW or EQ.

No what every one ran with was his line:


The thing is that I want to develop an MMORPG with 2D graphics

 

I work under the assumption that the person asking the question is an absolute beginner. He stated he knew Java, but that doesn't tell his level of understanding or the things he has done in Java. He even states he has never made a game before. You're right, impossible is a bad term as nothing is impossible, however it is improbable. If it is just him then to make a 2D MMORPG, then again I say they were being 100% honest.

 

I never said the tools were harmful. I said just listing tools was harmful as you are assuming the OP will get direction of what to do for his ultimate goal (an 2D MMORPG) just from a list of tools. 

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No what every one ran with was his line:

JS_means_JackSparrow, on 24 Jan 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:


The thing is that I want to develop an MMORPG with 2D graphics

I'm unsure why you used that preface, since that is what I said.
Each response was based not on what he actually described, but his choice to use the reference MMO or MMORPG.

His use of that acronym wasn't wrong even if he's speaking of a game that allows himself and 2 others to play.  Many would disagree to the first M in a game allowing so few, but remember the origin is a reference to MUDs allowing more than 3 users.
And the popular use came with the Realm, which rarely broke 50. (and is still called an MMORPG despite rarely breaking 5).

You also commented that "I work under the assumption that the person asking the question is an absolute beginner." so why would you assume they not only have a working understanding of the acronym used, but share Your own specific interpretation of it?

.
I don't know what contact you have with beginners to game design/development, but they constantly serve as a great reminder of how different we can see the world through simply knowing something.

I had one student who thought a class on Assembler meant he would be learning to put together electronic devices.
I had another who thought Object Oriented was somehow a reference to the physical things (objects) attached to the computer, like the mouse.
I had one who thought believed you could literally write your personality into a computer like she had seen on a television show.
I have had many who had heard terms, but thought the acronyms were nouns, or that they meant something entirely different from their actual purpose.
And trying to explain to them what P.H.P. means.. is always fun.
(thankfully I no longer cover Web Design)

.
As to the Harm of listing tools, that was how I interpreted the comment that I was giving rope with which to hang..
But whether they will or will not direct him/her to the right place to make the game they want... by the description it sounds like exactly where he should start.

a Fighting Game, in 2D, Multiplayer.
That insinuates to me one of two likely game styles.
..
The earlier Final Fantasy games, but allowing multiple players to be among the 'group.'
Simple enough, the greatest investment of time would probably be in creating sprites.  The technical expertise to create it should take no more than 3 or 4 weeks from scratch.
Or
A more specifically fighting combat game, simulation of actual physical attacks and responses, ala Mortal Kombat, either allowing PvP among multiple players, or allowing only that.
Could be more complicated, or less.  The deployment method (web- html5 or js, native PC/Mac, mobile, Xplatform..) would dictate how much time would be necessary to bring it together.  As a web-game the multiplayer aspect pretty much takes care of itself, while a native PC game will need a lot more work to bring to life, and would require building a working server in order to test it.

Lastly, while some of us enjoy working in both areas, 2D and 3D, the genres inherent to them tend to attract people of only one type.  Those who want a game like WoW are typically going to be of the 3D persuasion, while those who seek to work in 2D are much more likely to be aiming for either small, story world type app development or adventure style games.

Exceptions certainly exist.

I think we've completely derailed the thread at this point.
Hopefully the OP will return and give a more complete explanation of what it is they hope to create.  Incomplete information simply generates issues and errors.

Edited by Looniper

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Well, first I have to thank you Looniper for all the time you spent here in this thread. I appreciate that a lot really.

I'm sorry guys if I wasn't too explicit in my question and if it is some information that I didn't give you.

 

I'll explain you what are my expectations to learn (yes, i'm not looking to earn any dollar or distribute a game, i'm just looking to build something for self-learning, because I like game development and I think it's one of the best practices for training yourself into programming).

 

It's a fact that I didn't develop any game yet, but I spent a lot of years in another game developing community which it was a forum just like this one where people were developing a 2D game called "Argentum Online" (you can google it, it's a free open-source mmorpg 2D game developed in Argentina, which is my country). As I was saying I spent a lot of time there, learning by reading how a basic client-server game works. So I have some little of experience, but I'm not an Engineer and nothing closer.

 

I'm just looking to learn by creating this game that I told you.

 

Basicly what I want to build is, as Looniper correctly said, a 2D Online RPG to the rank of 100 users online. The graphics will be top-down 2D not isometric, the tile-grid in 64 pixels and the only control directions are UP, DOWN, LEFT, and RIGHT. I know this is just details but it's just the best way that I can use to explain you what I want. Because as I said i'm not an expert and really don't know all the stuff and things that handle a Server Networking.

 

Finally, this is not a commercial 3D MMORPG as World of Warcraft as you were saying. This is just a 2D top-down graphics RPG and a server to allocate aprox. 100 users. So I'm just wondering what are the first steps or the main path that you recommend me to go through.

 

Thanks you a lot guys really.

Edited by JS_means_JackSparrow

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Sounds achievable to me. That said, I'm on year 3 of my own RPG solo project so you should expect it to take quite some time. Or is it year 4? I've lost track. So much to do and so many wheels I've reinvented, thrown out, and then reinvented again.

 

The first steps you should take depend on what steps you've previously taken. If you've already have a few games under your belt then perhaps you already have access to libraries or code for stuff like displaying & animating sprites and user interface stuff. If you can get a sprite on a screen, maybe experiment with getting a tilemap going for your game world and then get a character up there and walk around a bit. Then maybe look at populating the world a bit with things like trees, towns, or whatever fits your vision. Once you got that going maybe take a stab at looking into getting the networking components going so that you can have two players connect to the game and walk around the world at the same time.

 

If you don't already have some idea in your head how to approach any of that then you probably have some more fundamentals to learn. Spend the time investigating the specific area that you feel like it'd be worthwhile to start with. And if it turns out that there's further fundamentals that you need to learn before you can proceed on even that area, then go learn those. And so on. But if you already know all this, maybe ask for help on a specific area that you'd like to focus on for the next while. Asking for general advice on how to put an RPG together is too broad of a question.

 

Try and work on things such that if the project collapses you'll be able to reuse at least some of the work that you've done to that point. Maybe the bits of code you have for animation or the stuff for getting a world map generated or maybe some start on network functionality. Try to always move forward in some way for each element needed for your game so that regardless of success of failure, the next project will go better.

 

Good luck.

Edited by kseh

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Just to put this on the table, I know we see far too many "How does I MMO" threads, and I understand the chafe that comes from people thinking that game dev is trivial work, but the salt could really stand to be toned down.

A lot.

Especially in FB threads, though I get that this one was moved.

In this case OP didn't really even transgress. There's a stated goal of MMO, but OP demonstrated awareness that there's hard work involved and made a general request for information. While it's certainly worth noting that this is indeed a long haul, it's not fair to OP if we take out our frustration over the other questions. OP is asking where to start learning, not where the 'make MMO' button is on the keyboard.

Just sayin'.

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Basicly what I want to build is, as Looniper correctly said, a 2D Online RPG to the rank of 100 users online.

 

Make a note to your future self: Never, ever, EVER use the MMO monicker in a forum filled with people that do have an idea of game development. You will be shot down and hear a lot of "negativity" which basically is just people trying to help you get on the right tracks...

 

That is not an MMO. Not by an order of magnitude. This sounds like a fairly small online game. Certainly doable for a lone developer.

 

Now, I know some people think "Online game sounds bland, that is not sexy at all. Lets call it MMO, that will make it sound much cooler!"... its ridicolous when big studios do it (World of tanks a MMO? Don't make me laugh! A persistent player garage and stats and a chat lobby does not make an online game a MMO! Does not make the game any worse to play, but the marketing surrounding it makes me chuckle regularly)...

If small startup devs like you use the monicker, its even more ridicolous. MMO might not be as clearly defined as RTS as a genre... but its pretty clear that not all online games are MMOs.

In fact, the first "M" stands for "Massively", and is the reason why expierienced devs will tell you that the expenses and time needed to develop an MMO is just as "Massive".

 

 

Now, as to starting with an online game as your first project. Still a bad idea. Networking itself is a huge topic. As is creating the game client itself. With a singleplayer game, you could concetrate on the latter without needing to also learn the former.

But of course, this is entirely up to you... some people like additional challenges, or having double as long to finish a project... some people actually ARE fast learners and have no problems takling multiple challenges at once. Maybe that is you.

 

 

 

Just never, EVER, use the MMO monicker again when you are talking about a simple online game.

Edited by Gian-Reto

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Despite what most people say I think it's a great way to learn new tricks and coding as a whole doing a project you are excited about. I have learned a great deal of what I currently use and apply from projects that never seen the light. So by all means do whatever you want as long as you enjoy it because whether your first game is a pong clone or a WoW clone your not gonna earn a dime from it, neither are people going to play it but you will earn experience. Just stay realistic, you cannot accomplish what a full team of professionals took years in a couple of months, that will indeed take decades. But as long you learn from it there is no wasted time. Most people here all tried a MMO or at least a handful of other way too ambitious projects and just want to protect you from disappointment.

 

I think LibGDX is a excellent choice for a 2d game, especially since you seem comfortable with Java. Unity is great but for a 2D game it feels overkill to me. Unity however does allow to do a lot visually like creating levels and shaders but learning how to do this without an engine helps you in the future. Kryonet can help you out with the client/server architecture, it works really easy, in both the client and the server you create equal packet classes to be sent back and forth. You will add listeners to receive these packets on both sides as well. It took me about an hour to get some multiplayer movement action live.

 

If you really are aiming for a client/server architecture you should let the server handle all calculations and never trust the client. Even a simple move forward should be checked on the server if this could have the tiniest impact on gameplay. You could either move the client prior to checking on the server and set the client back if the server does not agree or only let the client move when the server agrees but the latter is very lag sensitive of course.

 

You could simply run the server and client locally to test it yourself but once you need more player to test it you need to setup a cheap server. www.noip.com can hook up a dynamic DNS to your ip so all you need to do is forward the port you chosen in your code. You can also opt for a Raspberry Pi and have your server run on there so you don't have to keep on your 800W PC with loud fans running the server application 24/7.

 

Cannot think of anything else atm, just get the basic client/server communications up and start experimenting. It's a ton of fun!

Edited by menyo

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Now, I know some people think "Online game sounds bland, that is not sexy at all. Lets call it MMO, that will make it sound much cooler!"... its ridicolous when big studios do it (World of tanks a MMO? Don't make me laugh! A persistent player garage and stats and a chat lobby does not make an online game a MMO! Does not make the game any worse to play, but the marketing surrounding it makes me chuckle regularly)...

If small startup devs like you use the monicker, its even more ridicolous. MMO might not be as clearly defined as RTS as a genre... but its pretty clear that not all online games are MMOs.

In fact, the first "M" stands for "Massively", and is the reason why expierienced devs will tell you that the expenses and time needed to develop an MMO is just as "Massive".

 

I shouldn't actually trap myself in a discussion like this but MMO is apparently heavily opinion based like the term roguelike, nowadays people and devs easily tag there game roguelike while it has absolutely nothing to do with Rogue . But why does world of tanks should not fall under MMO? Should eve online be defined as MMO? Each system in eve has it's own instance and starts lagging with 100 people in it. Basically everyone in eve communicates over a simple chat box like in world of tanks and direct massive player interaction is minimum. Yet the player counts are massive for both games, both are multiplayer and both are online. Massive does not say anything about visual content or how player interactions should be., that is what you are making up yourself I guess. Hack, for all I care candy crush saga is MMO, all my friends compete for the highest score so it even has the grinding of a MMORPG :D.

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I shouldn't actually trap myself in a discussion like this but MMO is apparently heavily opinion based like the term roguelike, nowadays people and devs easily tag there game roguelike while it has absolutely nothing to do with Rogue . But why does world of tanks should not fall under MMO? Should eve online be defined as MMO? Each system in eve has it's own instance and starts lagging with 100 people in it. Basically everyone in eve communicates over a simple chat box like in world of tanks and direct massive player interaction is minimum. Yet the player counts are massive for both games, both are multiplayer and both are online. Massive does not say anything about visual content or how player interactions should be., that is what you are making up yourself I guess. Hack, for all I care candy crush saga is MMO, all my friends compete for the highest score so it even has the grinding of a MMORPG biggrin.png.

 

 

Well, back in the old days a game with a chat lobby and matches with multiple players in them where called "online multiplayer games"... simple as that.

 

That is what World of tanks basically is. 30 Players per match sounds rather average when some singleplayer games with tacked on multiplayer (even though nowadays that might be the other way round nowadays) support 64 players per match. Then there is the chat lobby, which actually is just a chat lobby, no fancy avatars or laggy towns.

 

The only part that MIGHT qualify as a MMO is persistence. But really, games did Player stats and euqipment persistence on servers way before MMO was even a thing. Diablo did it from the start. Is Diablo a MMO?

 

 

To me, a game is a MMO when it starts supporting a massive amount of players per instance. You know, about a thousand, maybe several hundred players per match or instance. Not 64, and certainly not 30.

And as far as I know, this actually was coined in the past as one of the defining properties of a MMO game, besides the persistent world.

 

Do some people swap "players per Instance/Match" against "concurrent players online on the server"? Maybe. But what is the point? Do I care there are 100'000 concurrent users on the server if I cannot interact with more than 30 per match? It does provide a healthy set of players for the Matchmaker to choose from, making sure I don't see the same player more than maybe once a year or so even if I play the game a lot... but do I care about that? As much as online games should be about socially interacting with other players, most of the time the other players are more glorified bots than human beings. The only difference between a bot and player is that the player will sometimes comment your ingame feats... you know, congratulate you on a match well played, and more often insult your mother for killing them. 98% of the time players don't do that, because the other players could as well be bots for them...

A real bot will not care 100% of the time. And is not giving you the same variation in skill (Altough it is unable to be as bad as some players it seems). But thats about it for differences.

 

Now, to come back from the tangent I went off with... CCU is pretty meaningless as a defining factor for an MMO. As long as players are just a name, and MAYBE a skill level (If you use the XVM Mod), there might as well be 1000 players on the server, your expirience would be the same (Actually, you might start to see other players more often, making them more than just glorified bots to you).

What WOULD matter to the players expirience is to play a match with 1000 players in the game. Could you do that also with/against 999 bots? Yes, the expierience might not differ given bots could be pretty clever nowadays, and the player doesn't know which players are bots and which are not.

But playing against/with so many other players/bots will certainly make for a vastly different expierience... which happens to be one of the main draws of MMORPGs. Would players waste their time cycling through their emoticons in town if nobody would see them doing that? Would they do if only the same 2 guys would see them all the time?

Or is it that they have an audience of probably 1000's of people that pass that part of the city in the hour or two they stay in town (hopefully getting snacks and leaving their toons just dancing, and not staring at their dancing toon like a monkey on tranquillizers smile.png )?

 

 

So for me, a game needs both the massive instances AND the persistence to be a true MMO. I see no value in handing out that Monicker to jimmy the app developers 3s phone game that happens to have a chat lobby with 100'000 concurrent users online chatting about nonsense.

Contrary to that, I see a lot of damage done by marketings and devs overuse of that monicker, because it leads not only to confusion but also to overinflated expectations.

 

Now there are edge cases, I give you that. And there is the question "does it matter" in some cases. But that question goes both ways. Does it matter World of Tanks marketing is calling their Online game an MMO with such a puny amount of players per game? Does it matter if World of tanks is called an MMO or not? Does their core demographic really care? Do they really gain much from the "wrong dialers" that jump onboard just to find out this isn't WoW with tanks, and leave within hours without spending any money?

 

 

In the end, the MMO Monicker is way overused. Just because there is grinding does not make it an MMO... just because there is a massive amount of concurrent users does not make it an MMO.

If you call everything an MMO, the whole term loses its point of existence. Which is to seperate the truly MASSIVE online games, with MASSIVE virtual worlds, MASSIVE amount of concurrent players that can share instances with a MASSIVE subset of them, and can stay online for a MASSIVE amount of years, from other games... which could be just as MASSIVE in one or more of the indicators, but differ in one very important point: they most probably haven't costed the MASSIVE amount of money and time to make.

Which is the only really important point as a Dev to even use the MMO monicker: to seperate the sane projects from the insane ones, no matter the Teamsize.

Edited by Gian-Reto

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As professional developers part of our job is to be able to listen to what a client or customer says and be able to produce what they actually want whether they call something by an absurd name or not. While the OP will indeed eventually have to learn the jargon to communicate effectively with his peers, since this is the Beginners it's not unreasonable to approach questions with the mentality of addressing a client whose jargon is less than perfect. And actually, the Beginners forum provides an opportunity for the experienced users to practice this skill (with minimal risk of offending and permanently loosing a paying client). Otherwise we might as well just all keep a number of generic responses ready to be pasted in.

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As professional developers part of our job is to be able to listen to what a client or customer says and be able to produce what they actually want whether they call something by an absurd name or not. While the OP will indeed eventually have to learn the jargon to communicate effectively with his peers, since this is the Beginners it's not unreasonable to approach questions with the mentality of addressing a client whose jargon is less than perfect. And actually, the Beginners forum provides an opportunity for the experienced users to practice this skill (with minimal risk of offending and permanently loosing a paying client). Otherwise we might as well just all keep a number of generic responses ready to be pasted in.

 

Good point. So I do see that less sarcasm might be a good idea.

 

On the other hand, the beginner has to learn WHY an "How do I MMO" thread is usually met with such a sarcastic response. There is no point in trying to pop someones dream, but NOT telling them that their dream might not be realistic at all is also wrong IMO.

And about the deliberate misuse of terms: this is not a "professional client" we are talking about... most of the people coming to the beginners forum with such a question have no idea of game development. If another person that is a professional themselves misuses the term and insist on the misuse, I can quickly adapt as I assume the person has a reason to call a pear an apple. If I am talking to a newbie, I assume this person just has the wrong idea.

 

 

Besides that, "The customer is king" is not a good defense for an unprofessional customer that hasn't made his homework (and because of that should know what to call things to not give the dev the wrong impression), nor is it a good defense for an either unprofessional or shy dev that doesn't want to clear up points that could very well lead to misunderstandings.

"Trying to read between the lines" is a very common cause for project failure or exploding budgets because of wrong requirements. If the client isn't clear enough, its your job to ask. And then ask again. And make sure the client understands in DETAIL what he just ordered you to do. Only then you have a high chance to have a satisfied customer at the end of the project.

Edited by Gian-Reto

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Ive been doing game development since i was about 13.

 

That's twenty two years of gamedev on and off.

 

I had a long break somewhere in the middle, and when i came back to it about six years ago i jumped right in the deep end aiming to make a multiplayer online rpg/strategy game.

 

Admittedly i had a leg up, because I already had a scalable server architecture to use, and knowledge of gamedev. I threw these together and within a month i had an isometric map with guys walking around and fighting each other.

 

Three things stung me, and as a newbie, or as any of us really, unless you're EA, they will without a doubt sting you. Please don't take these as negatives, more things to overcome:

 

1) Content production. It's one thing having a map several hundred kilometres in size, but when it's an empty wilderness, and there's nothing to do but PvP but the map is too big to actually find the other players then nobody will play your game. Producing continual, interesting and high value content is something you'll need to build up a team of developers for, and maybe even pay them.

2) Bringing in a userbase. You want more than 16 players, maybe 100 is reasonable. You need to get these 100 players onto your server, and keep them there. It's ok saying "i have 1400 players" (one of my past web based games did) but the problem is having them logged in at the same time, so they can play each other. In my past game that had 1400 players, they were very rarely ever logged on at the same time and when they were, they were geographically distant (see point 1).

3) The willingness to pay. Unless you have the production values of world of warcraft or similar, people simply don't want to pay for your game. They expect AAA levels of production as soon as you mention 'online multiplayer game'. It's a sad fact of life that the people who indie games appeal to and the types of people MMO's appeal to don't seem to overlap very much.

 

There, now i've said my two pence worth, feel free to respond. If youre interested, you can find both of my old projects here (a web based multiplayer RPG) and here (a windows based large-scale multiplayer strategy/RPG)

 

...Have fun! :)

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a 2D Online RPG to the rank of 100 users online. The graphics will be top-down 2D not isometric, the tile-grid in 64 pixels and the only control directions are UP, DOWN, LEFT, and RIGHT. I know this is just details but it's just the best way that I can use to explain you what I want. Because as I said i'm not an expert and really don't know all the stuff and things that handle a Server Networking.


I apologize for the late response, it has been one of those weeks...
I did some digging for tutorial series around Java or C# since you listed those specifically, and oriented on 2D - multiplayer.
Several series seemed likely to do a beginner more harm than good, but I found one that was presented clearly enough that someone with some familiarity with Java should have no trouble.
Java 2D Game Engine Development
It covers the range from spritesheets to UDP/TCP and packets for multiplayer.

I only watched two of the videos in the series, so if it leaves much out there are a couple of series at The New Boston that teach Java from scratch and basic Java game creation.

While I know you could find tutorials easily enough, I don't doubt you've looked, and come across some of the confusing, broken, messes I found before this one - and were discouraged by them.

Hopefully this one will get you to where you want to be.
At the least it will give you some of the basics on the networking framework and dealing with animations.

//
//

As to the discussion on what constitutes an MMO...
The "Massively" aspect was originally a tragic failure of grammar referencing the design orientation of a game.
A game was Massively-Multiplayer if it was designed entirely around the multiplayer aspect.

Games like NWN and its original hard coded support for an amazing 50 users! ensured the shift from one of Quality to one of Quantity.
Later editions going into the hundreds, T4CY breaking 100, UO breaking 500, and EQ making the 1k mark look trivial, ensured that change and started the gradual increase in values.

..
I understand the frustration of seeing dozens of people asking (often trolling) how to make a game like World of Warcraft when they can't name a programming language, or seem to understand even the laymans' meaning of "condition" but negative responses only ensure it is fodder for the trolls, it doesn't help those asking legitimately to find inspiration to work to their capabilities.

Remember, many who are asking these questions are uninformed enough to still think that learning a programming language is the 'hard part.'
And remember why it is we give time to answering them.

 

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So for me, a game needs both the massive instances AND the persistence to be a true MMO

This is a good example of how subjective the term has come to be.
From originally referencing games with a maximum (coded) capacity under 50, to games not being worthy unless they support hundreds && persistent game environments.

Or the more common usage among those who are not on the development side - a game that is played through the internet by more than one person at a time.

I consider it a great failing on our part as a community that we have not replaced these older terms with more accurate, reasoned terminology and seen it through to common usage.

As someone mentioned earlier, part of our jobs is (now that Systems Analyst is an obsolete profession) to establish viable, fruitful communications with the client or design-team. By not giving them terms that can more accurately describe their intent, we have collectively failed in that regard.

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Let's get back on topic. 

 

Look at the REAL question that was being asked.  It has nothing to do with MMO, even though he used those words. Also he pointed out he has a language barrier, English is not the native language of Argentina.

 

Yes, we all know a beginner will not make an MMO. This is For Beginners, and for better or worse, beginners throw around the term MMO when they think about their dreams.

 

Remember the additional rules for For Beginners. They include, "This is a forum for beginners.  Do not flame users because of their lack of knowledge. We all had to start somewhere. This forum is for beginners to ask questions without being harassed because somebody more experienced thinks the answer should be obvious. Make sure your replies are helpful and guiding the beginner in the right direction, not taunting or flaming or insulting them."

 

 

 

 

Reading it fully, the original question is: "I want to learn how to make some 2D online games. I'm thinking about learning libGDX or LWJGL. Is there something better, and can you please point me to tutorials?"

 

I think that was addressed through answers by menyo and Looniper, pointing out tutorials related to libGDX and Kryonet for making 2D online games with the tools and background described.

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Let's get back on topic

Sorry for my part of that.
It is one of those things that is likely to come back around as often as the term comes up when referencing someone's goals.


To JS_means_JackSparrow
The more 'beginning' series from The New Boston I mentioned is here.
Java Game Development

(frob-Liked the book btw, I'm not a Unity fan and it got me through two projects)

Edited by Looniper

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Thank you again Looniper for the time spent.

 

First I need to tell frob that you're right, in Argentina we speak Spanish. But the second most used language is English, and we learn it from the beginning, at primary school. I know the way of my expression can be seen as bad but I'm very good at reading or listening, much better than talking or writing so I really have no trouble to follow along a video tutorial or a book.

 

Then, thank you Looniper for the two tutorials, before you posted that, I've started working with this: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRIWtICgwaX0u7Rf9zkZhLoLuZVfUksDP

it's a very very well explained Java 3D tutorial using OpenGL. Sometimes I find it a little bit difficult to follow for example with things like Matrix and Shaders, but I'm learning a lot and it's being very useful for me. So when I finish this one that I started I'll begin the ones that you gave me. Thank you!

 

By the way, I'd like to say that in my opinion a game is considered Massive Multiplayer when it has literally a lot of players online simultaneously, like 50 or 100 or even more. The problem is that most of you are considering the new fashioned MMORPG's that are out there maintened by giant companies as the main examples for that terminology, and that's wrong. MMO's are not only World of Warcraft, there are a lot of indie games out there that can support more than hundred of players and are not maintened by big enterprises. So start opening your mind and take off your mind the concept that a MMO means 3D game with 100 channels with 10000 players, with 5 billion revenue and an extremely huge datacenter.

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