Hostility in the field

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54 comments, last by Kylotan 7 years, 7 months ago

He may have no where else to go - his skills are specialized to the game industry (I imagine his passion is in play here); his knowledge of C++ might be transferable, but he has no other experience outside of the ten-odd years in the game development racket. What industry would be willing to accept him without the other skills (his web knowledge is weak, for example) he would need to be hired? Furthermore he is at a point in his life where ageism is a serious problem; I am fortunate enough to be in an industry where the wisdom and experience that comes with age is greatly valued; but even *I* - a babe in the woods, as far as programming is concerned - know that ageism is rampant in all tech industries, save maybe game development.

I'm not going to get into the weeds of the discussion here, as I feel you're making many claims and assertions that are tenuous at best (not just the quoted section). But to answer the practical problem at hand, there are many industries who need those skills. 3D graphics is huge in many, many fields - notably medical. Math and physics experience are in demand in many places. Even the people who do gameplay layer stuff are not useless, as the ability to understand and modify a single integrated multi-million line codebase with broad scale behavioral changes is not actually very common.

The tricky bit is that you have to sell yourself a bit when you're shifting between industries and careers. You need to lay out a case for WHY your old experience is relevant to the job you're applying for. This is not an unusual problem for people to face. As the adage goes, people change careers five times in their life. It's a mistake to believe that game development experience has no value elsewhere. But it will require some work to change over, and your friend is simply going to have to commit to fighting that fight.

SlimDX | Ventspace Blog | Twitter | Diverse teams make better games. I am currently hiring capable C++ engine developers in Baltimore, MD.
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Oberon_Command:

1. Personally, I'd say obvious bending over backwards is actually a little off-putting in and of itself. It can make you look like you're desperate or you don't have self-respect. Neither of those look good, except to the kind of manager who would exploit you.
2. Too much formality would definitely be off-putting. The game industry is a pretty informal place. Most of us wear t-shirts and jeans to work. I could see an interviewer seeing this formality, and thinking that the candidate would expect everyone else to be as polite and formal as him, get pissed when they don't, and leave. I've also encountered coworkers who were too polite to the point where their mannerisms come across as fake, and I can tell you that meeting people like that is really off-putting for me.

This sounds much like a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. It's as if the industry expects my friend to thread a too-thin needle - which doesn't really make sense as a job requirement. Now, certainly some standards of decorum are expected, but it seems to me that in this industry they are both un-intuitive yet ironically restrictive - your manner of clothing and behaviour can be relaxed, but precisely how relaxed is measured with a micrometer.

Note, this is from an outsider from a very suit-and-tie industry. Undoubtedly my observations are skewed.

Aha, the plot thickens. So your friend used to be a game developer, but isn't anymore? What happened? If he really was "shoved" out, it may be that word of him and whatever he did to get "shoved out" has spread...

In any case, someone trying to get "back" into the industry is an entirely different kettle of fish than someone who has always been outside trying to get in for the first time.

"Shoved out" is his words, and I must say they are inaccurate. All three dismissals were layoffs after business downturns, where many of his peers joined his ranks in unemployment. However, you raise an interesting point - could his reputation be falsely impinged due to this? It was my impression that this sort of event was common in the industry, but if there is an expectation of the rats leaving the sinking ship before it's under the waves, someone might get the wrong idea about precisely why my friend was laid off. How possible is this? Would three "strikes" means he's out of a career? Is there any way to counter this?

the best way to kill a programmer is to stop him from learning new things at the rate required to keep up with the rest of the industry.

Your friend should already know this if he was in the game industry before.

He knows this all too well; he asserts that his career has been "murdered" (yes, I know - he has a flair for intensity)...

because you won't post enough information to actually confirm what the problem is.

I can't post details, because he doesn't remember details - I suspect his injuries might be an influence. I also promised not to divulge any medical information or any information that can link these accounts to a real person. I apologize, but I don't know what else to do here.

The tricky bit is that you have to sell yourself a bit when you're shifting between industries and careers.

That's a big problem. His strategy has been to make himself so skillful that those skills sell themselves because due to his injuries, he cannot "sell" himself; it would be like asking a paraplegic to run a marathon. And before one of you says "some paraplegics do run marathons", this is where the metaphor falls flat - there are no prosthetics he can use to substitute for his lost ability. I only wish the ADA would recognize his condition for what it is, and call for equivalent "ramps" so that the many people like him can live fuller lives.

We are working at multiple removes, here, since we have deliberately incomplete information.

Layoffs are common in the game industry, having been laid off is certainly no bar to anything. And while in the initial round of job hunting, all those laid off are competing with each other, as years go by, the people you worked with previously should be your best path in to new jobs -- if they are at a company looking to hire, then "I worked with this person at Studio X, would love to work with them again" is the fast path to an in-person interview. If that is not happening, then the problem is more likely to be the applicant than the industry. I say more likely because if relocation is out of the question, or there is simply bad luck on hiring cycles, then that is not going to apply.

The rest of high tech is absolutely hiring, and is so desperate to hire that it will hire people whose programming background is "spent three months in a bootcamp". Someone with an extensive professional programming history in the game industry (a field which is held in unreasoned respect by the rest of technology, who presume it is more technically demanding than it actually is) should be able to easily move over. It is certainly not the case that the rest of high tech is *more* prone to ageism than the game industry is -- the game industry skews remarkably young in staff demographics.

So, as we said when your friend was posting here in person, the reported incidents don't match our experiences of how the software industry (in and out of games) works. Without more details, that makes the claims less credible.

I have just received word from my friend that a former supervisor - with whom he had a good working relationship - has just confessed to misrepresenting him to potential employers due to a misunderstanding of certain events.
This fully explains everything he has encountered in his job search.
All questions have been answered - thank you for your patience.

I have just received word from my friend that a former supervisor - with whom he had a good working relationship - has just confessed to misrepresenting him to potential employers due to a misunderstanding of certain events.

When you say 'misrepresenting', are you talking about a bad reference? If so, in the UK at least, that's illegal and I would seek legal council immediately to claim for damages. Not sure how it applies to the country your friend is in though.

Steven Yau
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I have just received word from my friend that a former supervisor - with whom he had a good working relationship - has just confessed to misrepresenting him to potential employers due to a misunderstanding of certain events.
This fully explains everything he has encountered in his job search.
All questions have been answered - thank you for your patience.

Well that sounds like an incredibly awkward conversation.

SlimDX | Ventspace Blog | Twitter | Diverse teams make better games. I am currently hiring capable C++ engine developers in Baltimore, MD.

He's understandably upset; he believes his career is over - at least in this industry, anyway.

He said if he had more time he could learn "back-end" (??) web programming, but he only has until the end of the month, then no more rent.

yaustar: This is the U.S. - I believe as long as his supervisor states it in the form of an opinion, he's in the clear.

yaustar: This is the U.S. - I believe as long as his supervisor states it in the form of an opinion, he's in the clear.

IANAL: In the US, doesn't it come under defamation and slander? Admittedly tough to prove but worth talking to an employment solicitor lawyer.

Steven Yau
[Blog] [Portfolio]

IANAL: In the US, doesn't it come under defamation and slander? Admittedly tough to prove but worth talking to an employment solicitor lawyer.


Yes. When I was at Activision, we were told, for legal reasons, not to give negative references; to just
reply (when asked by a potential employer of a former employee of ours), "sorry, I'm not at liberty to
discuss this individual." At my present place of employment, we are not permitted to give any kind of
employment references, positive nor negative. Someone who's been turned down for employment as a result
of a negative reference would advisedly have to have some proof before taking legal action. I2ANAL

-- Tom Sloper -- sloperama.com

At my present place of employment, we are not permitted to give any kind of employment references, positive nor negative.


I3ANAL, but couldn't that be construed as a policy that could hurt former employees' careers, and thereby open the company up to lawsuits of a different sort?

I'm not sure I'd want to work for a company that I knew would be unwilling to act as a reference during my next job search. It seems like a career-limiting move to work at a place where the employer will be unwilling to even confirm that you worked there. :P

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