I have been centrist/centre-left, Now I am going Right Wing

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69 comments, last by warhound 6 years, 10 months ago

I've always tried to be balanced, moderate, accommodating and considerate in my political stand (voting choices and what I spread around). Strongly believing this is the movement that is the best for mankind, has the greatest momentum and would ultimately be triumphant

Unfortunately with the current state of Europe, i have been proven to be very wrong

Against a hardened core group who only have the pleasure in maiming and killing people they have never met, only hardened (not hatred, not xenophobia) right-wing policies would put a stop to this. Now I've been pushed to seeing that you can be accommodating and considerate yet have tough right-wing policies/ideologies.

Some people live amongst you, they hate you and don't like your way of living. Well they can simply go to live in a country they approve of. No they stay and cause chaos ... .

The policies of current European governments are too soft and not effective.

Someone said if they make you change from centre-left to right-wing they have won. NO, as long as I don't become hateful. This is effective countering. They have and would continue to win, when they kill, maim and blind a few more some where in Europe later this year and a few more later and more next year. Then they continue to win.

I have made sure not to mention any religion, movement, group or country here because I don't want this to be mis-interpreted as hatred, xenophobia or racism towards a group. It is NOT. It is about effective political policies (which I think right-wing parties have handy) to counter the horrors we are facing here.

[Note:: I don't mind if this just a read only thread. So If you have only hatred views - please don't add them here. This thread is all about the mindset/political ideology that would effectively solve our current situation]

can't help being grumpy...

Just need to let some steam out, so my head doesn't explode...

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Someone said if they make you change from centre-left to right-wing they have won. NO, as long as I don't become hateful.


You have misunderstood that person. It's not merely about "hatred." What they should have understood was, "if acts of terror cause our society to become less open, more paranoid, and more authoritarian, then the terrorists have caused us to reject our own values and therefore have won." Your post would seem to suggest that, at least for you, the recent acts of terror in Europe have made you turn toward policies that are less open, more paranoid, and more authoritarian. You have become fearful and reactionary.

Therefore, the terrorists have beaten you. Speak for yourself, I remain unconvinced that authoritarian measures are productive or necessary.
Going by your past posting history, you've always been right wing...

Well people know from my posting history that I am very against the sort of measures that right wing parties propagate. But I'll offer my 2 cents here for good measure anyways.

Someone said if they make you change from centre-left to right-wing they have won. NO, as long as I don't become hateful.


You have misunderstood that person. It's not merely about "hatred." What they should have understood was, "if acts of terror cause our society to become less open, more paranoid, and more authoritarian, then the terrorists have caused us to reject our own values and therefore have won." Your post would seem to suggest that, at least for you, the recent acts of terror in Europe have made you turn toward policies that are less open, more paranoid, and more authoritarian. You have become fearful and reactionary.

Therefore, the terrorists have beaten you. Speak for yourself, I remain unconvinced that authoritarian measures are productive or necessary.

Oberon_Command is pretty much spot on imo. The whole goal of terrorists isn't just about hatred. The whole goal is to make people fear enough that they are willing to take extreme measures, become more paranoid, and reject core values of Western society in exchange for safety. It's about starting down a path, of which extreme measures are but the starting point. Where does that path end? How does it end? It's not a pretty scenario.

But before we get to the whole notion of dark paths, what is it specifically that you want European/Western governments to do? What measures would you have taken that aren't being taken right now? What do you believe is now necessary to solve the current situation?

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

I remain unconvinced that authoritarian measures are productive or necessary.

1. In an ideal world, you where you could reason with people, YES, authoritarian measures are unnecessary. But we are talking about people you can't reason with

2. When its not you or someone close to you that was killed or injured,... when you are an outsider to those directly affected then it easier to take a softly softly approach. And try to put on an angelic show to the world (disclaimer: no one directly close to me was killed or injured, I'm just someone who is able to empathise with people more than the average person)

3. If protecting people's lives comes first, then there has to be a deadline running against the centre-left approach. If things don't work after then, then change of policies is required. The DEADLINE in this case has expired long ago

Going by your past posting history, you've always been right wing...

Lol,

Seriously speaking, a black man living in the UK with immigrant parents cannot afford to be right-wing by default. Even then independent of my ethnicity, by values, i think I could comfortably classify myself as centre left. Though I can see why there could be some misunderstanding in some of my postings. For instance if some one should skim through the "Bill Gates UK foreign aid thread" it might appear that I was right winged. But if you deep-read the true picture becomes clearer. With so many post and little time in certain threads, most of us (including me) just skim through so we miss the clearer picture

But before we get to the whole notion of dark paths, what is it specifically that you want European/Western governments to do? What measures would you have taken that aren't being taken right now? What do you believe is now necessary to solve the current situation?

If i was a politician I would put the following policies under trial and feasibility testing (whatever that means), so these may not be practical as it stands and need lots modifications

1. Immigrants should go through more rigorous "western values/culture" assessment test before granted leave to stay

2. Non permanent Visa applicants from certain countries would face a lighter version of the same assessment

3. Because of their dented reputation Mosques should face more scrutiny during teachings and prayers to combat radicalisation. I would slip more secret service agents into their communities

4. Online tracking and snooping: More and more of this please

5. And there would be a lot of psychological evaluations going on here because humans are good at trying to deceive, so we tell you want you want to hear so we could pass the test

6. Would fund more police to permanently patrol the streets. With even more real world snooping around. Peoples lives (and well being) are now more important than liberal values- Thats the tough mental shift that has just happened to me

7. some of Trump's ideas don't seem that bad after second thoughts now

Like I said this is broadly speaking they would need modifications

can't help being grumpy...

Just need to let some steam out, so my head doesn't explode...

In an ideal world, you where you could reason with people, YES, authoritarian measures are unnecessary. But we are talking about people you can't reason with


So what? There are a lot of people you can't reason with. People you can't reason with have always existed. Why should we compromise our values because people who don't share them are angry at us?

When its not you or someone close to you that was killed or injured,... when you are an outsider to those directly affected then it easier to take a softly softly approach. And try to put on an angelic show to the world


So, basically what I'm seeing here is that you're putting words in the mouths of the people who lost loved ones, without actually being onesuch yourself, to support a position you've yet to meaningfully back up any other way than appeal to fear.

Okay then.

disclaimer: no one directly close to me was killed or injured, I'm just someone who is able to empathise with people more than the average person)


Really? And what about how supporting going all authoritarian is supporting some segment of the innocent populace suffering under the boot of the government (in this case, mostly people who look middle-eastern)...

Immigrants should go through more rigorous "western values/culture" assessment test before granted leave to stay


1. This is contrary to Western values.
2. What's to stop people from lying?
3. A candidate recently ran in Canada with a platform that included this. She was widely mocked and was not elected leader of her party.
4. Therefore, I am incredibly doubtful that this is politically feasible or even practicible. Not going to happen.

This and basically every other suggestion you've made would drive more people towards radicalization.

I usually won't weigh into this, but this issue is deeper than your right wing ideology. And boiling it down to policies must become more right wing , and that one group bad, one group good is profoundly insulting to decades of western interference and agitation in the middle east. That we, as a set of western cultures are innocent is ignorant at best, I can point to many things that are only reinforcing this hate. From the destruction of the ottoman empire, the creation of the state of israel (By the US, USSR and UK I will add) only added fire. So maybe a bit of introspection of our own decades of crap policies might enlighten you.

Let's get this straight at the start. Terrorism is completely abhorent, it has not place in society. But locking the door on different cultures is a little bit late. Especially since that terrorism is now spawning from people born and raised in that society.

How about this for a fact, last year, in America, acts that could be considered terrorist in the continental united states were committed primarily by WHITE Christians.

This meanders a bit, but just trying to highlight it's not just a good/bad argument anymore. Plenty of blame to go around.

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It's super easy to fall off either cliff, and there's piles of corpses on both ends. The only effective way we've found to mitigate that is to prioritize open dialogue between all parties and try to be willing to listen to and consider things that oppose our individual and corporate values. I don't really endorse "centrism" as a position. I think it's just an informal cop-out. You can identify with different ideas from different people, but halfway between wrong and wrong is... Still not good. As far as I can figure, people are served best when they figure out what their own values are and express them honestly, take feedback as an opportunity to learn, refine as needed, and maybe take things a bit more seriously. Decisions that seem trivial at the policy level can and do translate to people living and dying.

To some degree in the recent past we've started to limit the ability for people to speak freely and the quite radical result is what you're seeing now. Ideologues can't understand that because they're viewing the world through a frame that literally doesn't let them see it. The part of the brain that they're using to execute this reasoning is simply not equipped to identify and deal with the very real problems that they're creating.

From the doctrinal perspective real liberals and real conservatives don't like the idea of limiting speech. An open-minded (liberal) person wants a society where people can express new ideas, and a conscientious person (conservative) wants a society that's reliable. Free expression (without fear of retribution) satisfies both of those desires with a really quite small social cost (you have to hear things that you don't like). Authoritarianism fails miserably on both counts and its costs are extremely high (you are labelled, your life is systematically destroyed, and you are eventually killed).

The political left is increasingly being influenced by what's being called the SJW movement (a loaded term, but there's not really a fair term to use for that group specifically). Those are people who have been strongly influenced by ideas that encourage them to break the world into arbitrary classes of people, determine who is more or less advantaged than the other, and then they viciously assault the people who they've identified as being advantaged.

This is not a new idea by any means, and it's historically been proven to be - literally - the most efficient system of industrialized dehumanization and murder that we as a species have ever engineered. This is primarily a group of people with specific psychological traits that make them especially susceptible to the shape of the ideology being spread by influential figures who absolutely know better. They have naturally strong instincts to protect and nurture people who they identify as needing rescued - which is excellent, and we need those people - but the neurological system associated with that behavior is the exact same system that we associate with the term "mother bear". If you're a cub then maybe it's okay, but if you're some poor sap who just happens to be wandering by then that bear is probably not what you'd describe as "nurturing".

It's really dangerous to proceed this way. As the political left becomes increasingly possessed by this ideology society will continue to swing dangerously to the right and end up landing in the same pit of stupidity on the other side (where the priority is on orderliness and clear boundaries between things and your nurturing be damned). We need the left to keep the right in check and we need the right to keep the left in check; not by coercion, but by communication and consensus. The alternative is a bloodbath.

The political left - at least in the states - has been previously composed of these two semi-compatible groups and now the incompatibilities which have built up over time are causing the left to break in two, but our political systems aren't really well equipped to handle that, so we see a lot of people who are liberal identifying more with republicans than they do with democrats. I don't think that's really a good thing. It's good for the "open" left to split off from the "social justice" left, but not just to be amalgamated into the right. It creates the same kind of problem and it seems like it will ultimately lead to increased conflict, which doesn't serve any of us. This is analogous to a person whose left and right arms are at war with one another and the result is that they destroy the rest of the body. It's not a question of who is right or wrong about any issue any more, it's a question of whether or not what we're doing is going to end in nuclear fire.

I'm not entirely sure how we can proceed, but it's been taking up a lot of my thinking time lately. So far the best idea that I have is to radically improve and enforce an in-depth study of 20th century history (focusing on what went wrong and how) as a non-negotiable requirement for graduating from public school.

Possibly a deeper underlying problem is that we've been evicting the very idea of "meaning" from our social system for several decades now, and nature abhors a vacuum. If we can come to a rational consensus about what our culture is really about (those of us who aren't just trying to destroy everything), and return to our responsibility to offer our young people a meaningful place in our culture as they come of age then maybe they wouldn't be so easily attracted by authoritarian garbage.

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There are ten kinds of people in this world: those who understand binary and those who don't.

As most programmers understand, errors can pop up from many places. A seg fault due to a corrupt pointer can come from all over a program. Just because an error occurred at a particular function, doesn't mean that function itself is incorrect. You have to pop open the debugger, check the call stacks, trace inputs outputs, look for the real culprit. If every time an error occurred I just immediately deleted the code where the error occurred I'd get no where.

The same applies to politics and policy. Its easy to look at the news, come to the conclusion that all XXX are the problem (fill in the XXX with the label of your choice: Muslim, Christian, White, Black, Male, Female, Left, Right, etc...) and insist we have to eliminate/suppress/regulate them. But if they're not actually the problem, but rather it stems from another source, you've just made things worse.

If these attacks bother you that much, that you feel such drastic actions must be taken, my suggestions is channel that emotion and look under the hood for the real problem, and a real solution. Sure, its not easy, whether in the real world or while programming, finding the hard bugs is never easy. One of the few things I learned in University was: you can't solve a problem until you understand the problem. Or as Sun Tzu said: “know yourself, know your enemy, and you shall win a hundred battles without loss”.

"The hell you can't. Because we did it. These Muslims are no different than the [Imperial] Japanese. The Japs had their suicide bombers too. And we stopped them. What it takes is the resolve and will to use a level of brutality and violence that your generations can't stomach. And until you can, this shit won't stop. It took us on the beaches with bullets, clearing out caves with flame throwers, and men like LeMay burning down their cities killing people by the tens of thousands. And then it took 2 atom bombs on top of it. But if that was what it took to win we were willing to do it. Until you are willing to do the same...well I hope you enjoy this shit, because it ain't going to stop."

Quote from a WWII veteran overhearing someone say that `You can't bomb an ideology."

It can be done. But current leaders don't have the willpower to do it. People of the "love everyone", "no guns just hugs", and "tolerance above all especially to those who wish to kill us" attitudes don't have the willpower.

People can think that will work all they want. It won't. All these celebrities that preach this, I am waiting for them to go over somewhere in that part of the world and just walk down the street or hold a concert. No, not on a military base or something like that, but really out amongst those people.

All the people that support letting anyone and everyone into their country, why don't they let them come live at their house (or one of many houses for the rich). Why do they lock their doors at night? Why do they live in a gated community or gates around their house?

If you move to another country and want to be part of it then you should assimilate to their culture. You dont need to give up everything you came from, but you cant expect the new country to change its culture to fit you. You are the one that decided to go there. One of the guys that did the Manchester or London attack (forgot which one) has been on documentaries in the UK out in a public park in the UK. Praising ISIS. Demanding Sharia law be imposed immediately in the UK.

And then you have the Mayor of London about a year ago, just saying that terrorist attacks are just part of living in a major city and to get used to it? Really? Really?!?

We, people of Western Civilization, are just too weak-willed and too "OMG I got to be PC" to do anything about it.

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