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selimchehimi

AI will lead to the death of capitalism?

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Hey everyone! 

Recently I've been thinking a lot about AI, Automation, and jobs. I think that Artificial Intelligence will lead to the death of capitalism. A new economy, which will be incredibly productive but will not need a lot of human workers, might appears. Humans will have to adapt and reconsider the idea of working for a living (a Universal Basic Income will probably be necessary). Our biggest challenge will be to find the meaning of life when work will no longer be an obligation. Some believe that we’ll be free from work, others believe that work is essential to human being. In my opinion, it's a good thing because AI will liberate us from repetitive and boring tasks. Humans will have the chance to focus on what they excel the most i.e. creativity. What do you think guys? I would love to know what you think about AI and unemployment. 

I've made a video about this here: 

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*This may have been better in the lounge, btw*

This thread is normally for development pertaining to implementing AI in games, or simulations. But i'll give my 2 cents anyways, for what it's worth.

This whole idea, I feel, is predicated on the machines being self sustainable. If they are not, you end up in a circle of employment yet again: someone has to repair these machines, someone has to teach someone HOW to repair these machines. Someone has to do damage control, and press briefings when the machine gets a nullptr exception, and goes on a killing rampage.

I think the general idea is nanobots, or something like that. I don't know. Which, though some members may disagree, we're nowhere near yet on a global scale. Really this whole ongoing thing that AI will replace humans is really just a giant tech circle jerk, sorry to say.

Maybe someday, in eighty years when we have bi-partisanship on national initiatives this can be feasible. I mean look at the national initiative for the space race! We made it to the moon before the 70's! It's amazing what we can accomplish when we all come together, and set a common goal. Put money, and our brightest minds to it. Basically I don't doubt the technology. I doubt people.

Edited by markypooch

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1 hour ago, selimchehimi said:

I think that Artificial Intelligence will lead to the death of capitalism. A new economy,

Capitalism will never die, just change form.

As long as humans can value something, there will always exist a need to have more of that value. So if AI did provide for humanity then we would find things worth more than basic necessities.

For example when we entered the industrial age, the farmers didn't all just stop farming because food output increased a thousand fold. They didn't hangup there farm hats and just laze around all day, setting up some kind of slave system.

People just expanded there view and moved on, the same thing should happen if AI do all the basics for us, we will just focus on the advanced an beyond.

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29 minutes ago, markypooch said:

*This may have been better in the lounge, btw*

This thread is normally for development pertaining to implementing AI in games, or simulations. But i'll give my 2 cents anyways, for what it's worth.

This whole idea, I feel, is predicated on the machines being self sustainable. If they are not, you end up in a circle of employment yet again: someone has to repair these machines, someone has to teach someone HOW to repair these machines. Someone has to do damage control, and press briefings when the machine gets a nullptr exception, and goes on a killing rampage.

I think the general idea is nanobots, or something like that. I don't know. Which, though some members may disagree, we're nowhere near yet on a global scale. Really this whole ongoing thing that AI will replace humans is really just a giant tech circle jerk, sorry to say.

Maybe someday, in eighty years when we have bi-partisanship on national initiatives this can be feasible. I mean look at the national initiative for the space race! We made it to the moon before the 70's! It's amazing what we can accomplish when we all come together, and set a common goal. Put money, and our brightest minds to it. Basically I don't doubt the technology. I doubt people.

Oh sorry for that, I thought that the section was for AI in general not just for video games. 

I agree with you, and I like this view on self-sustainable machines, so if they are we could end up having a big problem. I also think that some people over exaggerate Artificial Intelligence (e.g. AI replace humans) but I do think that some jobs can be replaced by AI (delivery workers/self-driving cars). 

And so nowadays it may be the AI race right? :D That's exactly right, the problem is humans, not the technology itself.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I really appreciate it 

13 minutes ago, Scouting Ninja said:

Capitalism will never die, just change form.

As long as humans can value something, there will always exist a need to have more of that value. So if AI did provide for humanity then we would find things worth more than basic necessities.

For example when we entered the industrial age, the farmers didn't all just stop farming because food output increased a thousand fold. They didn't hangup there farm hats and just laze around all day, setting up some kind of slave system.

People just expanded there view and moved on, the same thing should happen if AI do all the basics for us, we will just focus on the advanced an beyond.

Yeah, that's true, we will just have to adapt I guess!

Although if AI do the basics, most jobs will be gone ahah

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4 minutes ago, selimchehimi said:

most jobs will be gone ahah

Work is how a lot of people value there lives, yet it isn't the only way.

The idea of people not working is alien to us now, yet the same can be said about our lives. Think of explaining banks and money to your caveman ancestors.

There should be something after money, yet even if we where shown what it was, chances are that we wouldn't be able to understand why people of that time value it.

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If AI takes over and goes beyond the control of mighty individuals (how unlikely!), then maybe it can be for good. Maybe this makes impossible things possible, like an united world government. It can take care to balance things like tax graduations, social grants etc., so not only doing industrial work fur us, but political work, which i find much more interesting. If so, personal greed could not hold us back as it did since humans live in groups. We would loose all our wealth to share it with the third world. We would hate and love it, but we would stabilize our population, enviroment, etc.

We dont need clever AI for this (which we don't have anyways), we only need to do the math and disempower ourselves.

(Not sure how much bullshit this is. I'm neither politic nor optimistic in real life)

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So there are two issues here, which are separate but linked. 

The first is automation, which is without a doubt within our grasp and is going to have a huge impact on the global economy. The positive scenario would be an end to capitalism (essentially your Star Trek/Culture style post-scarcity utopia), but the far more likely scenario is mass unemployment, where only the ultra-rich actually own any capital anymore. The nightmare scenario is keeping most of the population working just above the poverty line (because someone needs to buy the stuff that's being produced). Oh, and who will repair the robots? There are two answers to that: 1) other robots 2) no-one, just get a new one (production costs are now essentially just materials and electricity). 

If you think that automation will create more jobs, you haven't understood automation. Previously, automation just meant humans moved to doing jobs robots couldn't do, but we are approaching a point where the number of jobs humans can do better than robots is a) vanishingly small and b) mostly not very profitable (caring for other humans, creative works, etc).

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It's important to note that automation does not require true AI, merely that a machine can replicate the work of a human.

Which brings us to the second issue super intelligent artificial general intelligence (AGIs). This is what most people mean when they talk about AI. Basically, thinking and reasoning like a human except faster and smarter. If this happens (and it's not a given that it is possible), it will be an existential threat to humanity. The idea that we could control such an AGI is laughable. It's like asking a chimpanzee to build a prison for a human.

 

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Oh, and who will repair the robots? There are two answers to that: 1) other robots 2) no-one, just get a new one (production costs are now essentially just materials and electricity). 

I'm not sure if it would be that cut, and dry. Obviously automation would cost more jobs than it creates, that's really part of the idea. But to imply fabricating a cheap part with tools already in existence to create the machines in the first place, and paying a technician a one-time fee to go out, and repair the machine, as opposed to just buying a new one. Idk, that sound's like a whole 'nother spool of economics, and a battle of cost effectiveness.

Sure the cost is Materials, and Electricity. But depending on the scale, that can still be pricey? No? Also, I'd imagine intellectual property rights, or time invested in some of the technology will require kickbacks to someone who invested the insurmountable man hours to create the thing in the first place, right? I could be wrong. But it doesn't seem like it would be that straight forward.

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I've read several different variations on it.

The most positive is that automation effectively removes humans from all manual labor, freeing humans to enjoy an amazingly high quality of life where nearly all physical needs are taken care of, and humans only need do minimal work, the rest of the time enjoying a life of leisure. People can enjoy whatever fields of study they want.

On the most positive, humanity becomes enslaved, either enslaved by the machines, or by a small number of people who control the world. The machines care able to do everything, and there are plenty of resources, but the bulk of humanity is kept in bondage.

Consider how centuries ago humans needed an enormous amount of their time and brainpower in providing for food and shelter. That could mean backbreaking labor in the fields under the hot sun, or spending their days tending livestock, or hunting down the next kill. We now have tools and technologies that free us from most of that work, and in wealthy countries the few people who still coordinate the work have much easier time of it.  Self-moving sprinkler systems instead of flooding the fields or constantly building and maintaining watering trenches, pesticides instead of constantly patrolling the fields to catch and kill bugs. Combines and tractors and other large machines work in the fields. There is still effort required, but it is a tiny fraction compared to what was needed in the past.

 

I hope the same is true for the AI as described here. I would love to see most menial tasks and dangerous tasks eliminated as much as possible.  I wouldn't mind if all societies in the world are transformed so there is no need for capitalism, no need for anyone to fight to get ahead, or more specifically, for people to be left behind in poverty. If everyone had their physical needs addressed we could be free to enjoy other pursuits.  I'd gladly give up the "me first" parts of the economy in exchange for utopia.

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1 hour ago, markypooch said:

I'm not sure if it would be that cut, and dry. Obviously automation would cost more jobs than it creates, that's really part of the idea. But to imply fabricating a cheap part with tools already in existence to create the machines in the first place, and paying a technician a one-time fee to go out, and repair the machine, as opposed to just buying a new one. Idk, that sound's like a whole 'nother spool of economics, and a battle of cost effectiveness.

Sure the cost is Materials, and Electricity. But depending on the scale, that can still be pricey? No? Also, I'd imagine intellectual property rights, or time invested in some of the technology will require kickbacks to someone who invested the insurmountable man hours to create the thing in the first place, right? I could be wrong. But it doesn't seem like it would be that straight forward.

The point is that this will all be already bootstrapped. Sure, ultimately it could all fail and we'd need a monkey to go fix it, but that's true of all technology. 

Even if the problem is only solvable by a human, that's a temporary situation until technology improves to the point where it's solvable by machine. Even if we allow that takes decades, the number of people required to do robot repair will be insignificant in the grand scheme of things. 

1 hour ago, frob said:

On the most positive, humanity becomes enslaved, either enslaved by the machines, or by a small number of people who control the world.

 

I really hope you meant "negative" :D

1 hour ago, frob said:

If everyone had their physical needs addressed we could be free to enjoy other pursuits.  I'd gladly give up the "me first" parts of the economy in exchange for utopia.

Yeah, that's the Star Trek/Culture post scarcity utopia I mentioned. All it would require is for people to work together and for those in power to give up a little to help everyone a lot...... awww crap.

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