Kavik Kang

Nobody Wants A Cybergod?

Recommended Posts

On 8/5/2017 at 9:31 AM, Kavik Kang said:

Maybe I should sign up, sleep through all of the “classes” so as not to be corrupted by any of their bad elementary school-level of advice, and then try again!

This will just cause you to fail the class, which you will blame on the teachers, school, and classmates instead of your behavior.  Don't bother.

Quote

The only explanation of this that I can think of is that you don't know enough about game design to recognize that Rube is literally the “Holy Grail” of simulation design.

You share so little of the actual fundamentals of your ideas that it's impossible for us to evaluate them.  You share so much tangential ramblings as to bury what little you have shared.  Of course nobody can sanely evaluate that the ideas of Rube is anything worth their time.  At best they might try to extrapolate from the metaramblings about and around the ideas of Rube.

Quote

the blog I put up is over 500 pages! Amazing, isn't it?

"I would have written a shorter letter, but I did not have the time."

Between this and your attitude, you're a poor communicator here, either by choice, skill, or both.  You manage to gain a little attention with it, but largely the negative kind - little proper interest.  I'm baffled by your supposed board game bonafides - isn't this the antithesis of a good rule set?  Short and concise where possible makes things easier to pick up and quicker to play.  Complexity must earn it's keep in fun or interest, or be cut.

On the pen and paper side - sure, my library has thousands of pages of GURPS books alone - covering lore, worldbuilding, settings, mechanics, etcetera.  But these are meticulously organized, divided into books, cross referenced, and edited down to their essential contents, organized into compelling themes, indexed, summarized.  None of them ramble on about the affronts of the publishing industry against them, unless we somehow count the secret service raid on Steve Jackson Games way back when over the GURPS Cyberpunk series - ironically topical to the contents of the book.  And GURPS Lite is enough to get you started, at 32 pages.  For an entire game.  The other thousands of pages in my library?  Optional extra fluff to keep things going once you've already started.  By stark contrast, in the decade since you've started posting here, you've started to... more consistently use paragraphs.  Which, don't get me wrong, I appreciate, but isn't quite enough.

It's frustrating to see you squandering your potential like this.  Here we are, getting to make games, enjoying the creative process, seeing our creations come to fruition.  There you are, blinded by ideas that shine more brilliant than the sun in your eyes, struggling to execute on them or get others to, trapped by your own nature, your own behavior, unable to see the way forward, only able to see your ideas, labeling large chunks of your life a "waste" a decade later:

Quote

Don't waste your entire life like I did on, when it comes to simulation design anyway, this completely incompetent group of people.

You're clearly frustrated too.  That sucks.  Nearly everything has already been said by those better than I at communicating the way forward, however.  No sense generating another 500 pages retreading where we've been.

Quote

So, this really is for real, then? My entire life was wasted because none of you actually know what you are talking about?

Close - none of us actually know what you are talking about (and even if we did, it'd be no guarantee of our interest.)  Learn to communicate your ideas to mere mortals, build your ideas using mere mortal means, pivot to something that will use your ideas in different mere mortal ways, or accept that your ideas are in fact a waste.  Fool's gold blinding you from action and building things.  Take some goddamn responsibility for your own life and what you can do with it instead of blaming some strangers on the internet for their lack of having done things with it for you.  If your entire life is wasted, that is because of you.

If you pivot - maybe fiction.  Nanowrimo?  You clearly like to write.  You have imagination, and love metaphor to the point of it being a problem in design and technical discussions.  You love language charged with your own meanings and vocabulary - again, problematic, when the rest of us being on a completely different wavelength where your terms already had very different definitions at times.  Science fantasy can get away with not making technical sense to the reader, although plot and narrative structure will be important things to learn.  You may end up screaming bloody murder when an editor gets their hands on your work.  Learn to accept this when they are perhaps "ruining" your work.

If you don't pivot or abandon your ideas, you must learn to communicate on design and technical topics better.  The most genius and experienced among us will go entirely to waste if they cannot communicate.  And are they truly genius if they cannot learn this?  And even a fool can be a valuable member of a team if they can communicate.

My apologies for not taking the time to make this shorter.  And good luck.  I mean it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5.8.2017 at 8:27 PM, Kavik Kang said:

No, I am not going to give Rube away and watch you all make games based on my work while I am still not making games.

Well then, start making games. There is nothing stopping you besides yourself. Sure, you will have to learn to code and create art, or find people willing to work with you, but as a programmer who spent years learning to create art, and having seen you spend years trying to sell your expierience to others trying to ... achieve some vague goal of "breaking into the industry"... really, in all honesty, in the time you spent writing all those pages of text seemingly just teasing people (haven't read everything honestly), you would have picked up enough programming and art skills to start working on your game, or whatever you want to achieve, and most probably already churned out a prototype.

 

You want people to believe in your hyperbole? Ever heard the term "show, don't tell"? Applies here too. Create a prototype. Let me see your simulation skills in action. You can hide the technical details, or only use as much of your model as you can afford to get "decompiled" and re-engineered by others... but you have to put out an example that shows people how valuable whatever you are speaking about is.

 

And no, you don't need millions of $ or a large team for that. If you have the time to write 500 pages of Textwalls, you can create a rather substantial prototype that should be enough to show your concepts/models worth. Hell, in the years you spent here on GD.net occasionally ranting about this, you might have already created a rather substantial Indie game, even as a one man show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hodgman. I do know what you've been doing. I've been playing and studying your games since the day your industry began. I've been here all along. Deadlock is a perfect example, it's at least 30 years behind us. It's primitive, a first baby step in the direction of where we already are. Everything you've said applies perfectly the other way around, though. You don't know our work. You don't know the things that we know, that are based on a much longer history of making much more detailed and accurate games than your industry ever has. I am keeping very little “secret”. I've explained most of it already, you just don't have a frame of reference to understand it. You are stuck thinking in terms of “phases”, so you can't see the significance of what is sitting right in front of you. Exactly as you said too me, you aren't qualified to tell us what we do and don't know. You couldn't have it more backwards. Which group has been doing this for 70 years, and which has been doing it for 30? You really do have everything you said exactly backwards, everything you said applies perfectly if you just turn it around. And, I posted over 500 pages specifically because you people have always said “show us something. I did. Over 500 pages worth. Nobody has even bothered to read it, and now you act as though it doesn't exist. I just spent a year putting together a 500 page presentation to show you, what more do you want? I'm not giving away my unique style and then spending the rest of my life watching you people make games my way while still insisting that I am a talentless fool. I'm just not going to end my life watching everyone else do things my way while I am still ignored. I have shown more than enough on my blog that any competent person should be able too see that I know what I am doing. People in your industry just don't know a game designer when they see one, not even when that game designer has been doing this for longer than your industry has even existed. I don't see how you can describe me spending a year, non-stop, to create a 500 page presentation as being “lazy and not willing to show you anything”. Armageddon Chess is even a PLAYABLE GAME made under the production restrictions of “make a game you can send someone as an e-mail”. What more do you want?

Kylo: I am not a programmer. If I could make a game with the Unreal engine myself I would have done that a long time ago. As for everything else you said, you are just proving my point. You aren't capable of recognizing a game designer when you see one. And confirming that you actually consider some 22-year-old as qualified, but not a member of the SFB Staff (literal one of your “founding fathers”), is simply admitting to your incompetence.

All of this criticism that I won't show you anything is nothing new, and is the reason I created my blog here. That's why I did the blog, to do exactly this. Nobody will read it. I did this, it's there right now including a complete playable game. What you are asking for is there right now. You wanted to see something, I gave you 500 pages... you won't read it and yet still demand I show you something? I don't even know what to say.

I guess I'll just sit in a corner and wait to die. I don't have anything else to do. I was born to do one thing, obsessively. I wasted my entire life on it not realizing just how clueless and incompetent the one industry I would need to be hired by is. I won't be alive for more than another 10 years or so, and would just like for my entire life to not have been a complete waste. To just make one of my games. But that isn't going to happen, because your industry is too incompetent to recognize a natural born savant simulation designer when you see one. You think a 20-year-old is qualified and someone who has been designing games since before your industry even existed is not. What more needs to be said? That really says it all by itself. It's just incompetence, and you are even willing to defend that ridiculous notion, which is mind-blowing. I can't believe you will even look for ways to try and defend it. You truly are a hopeless group of the most arrogant people that the world has ever known.

I'll just go sit in a corner and wait to die. There is nothing else in this world for me to do. I only do one thing, and the people who control that one thing are too arrogant for me to ever get to do it. You should probably stop trying to make games with space ships in them, you severely embarrass yourselves every time you do. I can't believe you actually defend the notion of a 20-year-old being qualified while someone with 40 years of experience, and former member of the SFB Staff is not. That is just admitting your incompetence, and yes, I know you don't realize that. But it is.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Kavik Kang said:

I gave you 500 pages

How about 5 that clearly illustrate your point? Maybe with Illustrations instead of just text, even?

I understand that you are frustrated that people just can't seem to grasp the genius of your idea, but if nobody gets it, maybe the problem doesn't lie with the other people. In the end, the world has not been waiting on your awesome ideas, unless you show them how awesome they are. Seems at least here in the forum, you haven't achieved that.

 

I think many have told you this before, but here I go again: while ageism might be rampant in this industry, this certainly is not a problem with ageism. I don't know what you expierienced in this industry outside of what I have seen here on GD.net, but if you have been trying to get people interested in your product and your skills the same way you did on this page, your age is the least of your problem. Hell, I cannot even say if your actual skill or product is... they might be as ingenius as you make them out to be. And that is the big problem right there... bad communication.

 

You might have flashy elevator pitches... but they sound extremly out there and hard to believe.

You lack any kind of proof that can be presented to management or anyone without the time to read a full PhD work.

And it seems even the "full work" you intended to use to sell your product is not going enough into the nitty gritty detail on WHY your work should live up to the elevator pitch that even the few people bothering to read all the text come out puzzled by it at the end, not interested.

 

You are overselling yourself and underdelivering, all the while being way to afraid of plagiarism when you should be rather afraid that your claims sound hyperbolic without proof, proof that would mean you have to let goof some of the secrets you claim to hold.

Just because the fortune teller tells you he knows exactly what your future holds, you will not believe him without any proof, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I wasted my entire life on it not realizing just how clueless and incompetent the one industry I would need to be hired by is.

Why do you do this?

You seem to think "the industry" is somehow "us" (wat?) and that "you" are special because you aren't part of "us".... Or some shit. The industry isn't this elite private club that snoots at the uninitiated.

Kid, the reason you aren't getting hired by "the industry" is because you have no useful skills. You have

  1. no programming experience
  2. no game design experience
  3. trouble communicating ideas in the English language (do you even read what you type? Every paragraph can be summarised into a single sentence with no loss of information).
  4. a stuck up attitude about how you are better than everyone else

If you had any value at all, you would easily find a job in "the industry".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, and I'm happy to give more detailed feedback if you'd like to improve Armageddon Chess by the way, but I seem to recall you insisting that iterative design is a primitive crutch our industry uses because we don't have the skills to design the correct numbers and formulas up front.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Comet: I explained this in a previous thread before, but I thought I should say it again here. Just as I don't know about some of the methods you use to make games, you don't understand a lot of our methods. I have made more games in my lifetime than I could even begin to count. Easily over 100, probably over 300. How, you ask? As I mentioned once before, our generation had a means of prototyping games very quickly and easily. Actually making a prototype and playing with it is a lot easier, faster, and a lot less work that sitting in front of a computer writing game design documents. You don't bother spending all that time writing until you have arrived at something worth writing. Hobbyist industry game designers used a “tool box” to quickly make any game they were imagining to actually play with it before wasting any other time on it. A “tool box” was generally poker chips, flash cards, and maps and pieces from other games. I usually used the map from Supremacy for Earth, because it has very generalized borders. The Axis & Allies map was better if you wanted more regions to work with. With this “tool box” we could throw whole games together in a few hours, and then actually play with them to see how it was working... or not working. For example Territories is, in reality, all the best things to emerge from dozens of different “poker chip prototypes. After having tried at least 100 different “poker chip prototype” strategy games for years, I finally arrived at the original Territories. This was 25 years ago I am talking about here. This was a big advantage that we had on you. We could go through what you call “iterations” at lightning speed compared to you, just playing with poker chips and cards on an Axis & Allies map. After you do this for just a few years, you become very fast at throwing up any game idea to play with and actually use before you ever decide that it is worth writing. You can actually play a turn or two of 5 different versions of something in one day. I think that is a part of what is being missed here. We have ways of making these things exist, literally, before we ever decide to start working on them. I almost certainly have more experience designing games than you do, Comet, it's a lot harder for you to take a game as far as we can in a few hours.

Really, all this insisting that I know nothing at all, have no talent at this at all, nothing at all to offer, is just further demonstrating the complete lack of respect you have always had for the hobbyist game industry. That's been true since the earliest days of your industry, I know because I was there experiencing it right from the beginning, and still hasn't changed today. As for my methods since I retired 10 years ago, I had tried it the “normal ways” you are all suggesting for 20 years and never got anywhere. I already know that doesn't work. It's not me, it's you. If you think I have no relevant talent pr experience to offer people who are making games, then you are just making my point for me again. You don't know what you are talking about. I've been doing this since before your industry even existed. I assume you think the people making Deadlock are qualified, I really could advance that game 20 years in 20 months. And of us could, not just me. It's so empty, primitive, and broken in a million ways even though there is almost nothing there. I like it, I'm not knocking it, they are heading in a very good direction. But they are just starting on a decades long journey they will never complete because in the modern gaming world games don't last 30 years. I only use it as an example because you someone said I have no relevant skills, talent, or knowledge at this... and yet I am literally 40 years ahead of Deadlock.

 

 

JBAdams. I am happy to hear that you tried Armageddon Chess and I would love to hear more about what you think of it. As far as I know, you are the only people who have played it. I wrote that very quickly, when you guys suggested I make some kind of prototype, and never set it up or played with it. It is a “poker chip prototype” so, as I said in it's rulebook, tracking things will be a little confusing. That is always the case in all poker chip prototypes when you have no icons printed on the markers to distinguish them. In a published version that gets resolved with custom markers that make it all easy to deal with. So I get what you mean by “tediuous bookkeeping”, but that gets largely resolved by icons on the markers that make it less confusing. Was it more than that, or just the confusion of unmarked chips? What did you think was “tedious” about the combat? I'd love to hear any opinions you have on it, especially what you thought about the number of actions available in a fight. I left it intentionally high because I thought it was better to err on the side of more action, but I really think in the end it will be a set 3 actions in a fight regardless of what pieces were involved in the initial battle. I'm sure Armageddon Chess needs a lot of work to become truly fun, and it really is what I was able to cobble together that could be used this way under the restrictions of “make a game you can just e-mail to somebody”.

I don't think the Pirate Dawn document is disorganized, it's organized like many board game manuals... the first part of it. People in your industry wanted me to add a lot of stuff too it at one point, and the last 1/3rd of it is a pretty confused mess because of that. My fault, but parts of it like all of section U, are pretty messy. Where the game actually is should be in pretty good shape, I think you are talking about the end of it that does get a little confusing. It is definitely readable, and would have been ahead of its time in 1997 when I was originally wanting to make it. I'll also mention that if anyone is interested in seeing my version of a fleet of space ships, look at the 1X MSC and 1X Fleet files that come with the Pirate Dawn download.

The SFB Staff are essentially assistant designers, you have no equivalent too them in your industry. It has generally consisted of doctors, engineers from places like NASA's JPL, lawyers, military officers, even a real-life Colonel from US Space Command. It is nothing like any group of gamers that you would imagine. It was a very unique thing, and a very serious group of people. I did help to design the game when I was on the staff, JB, that's what we do. There are many rules still in the game today that came with me, including the fact that leak damage on Andromedan ships first hit's hull before going to the DAC, which had resolved a very big issue back when we were re-designing the Andromedans. I represented the Romulans during my time on the staff. It really is not anything like any modern group of gamers. The SFB Staff are truly assistant designers, and they are a very serious group of people. It really is a singularly unique thing.

I didn't design Sinistar: Unleashed, I made the levels for it during the last 3 months. I was more of the “rescue designer” than the designer. I made all 30 levels, across 4 levels of difficulty, through editing the text data files and testing on local builds, in about 2.5 months. That first draft was what they shipped.

On my Gamasutra blog there is a post about IKNFL. It's not like I have no reason to not want to reveal all of the details of Rube that would allow anyone to make games my way. Not getting credit for what I do has been a running theme in my life, it's not like you haven't done that too me before. Every sports game your industry has ever made is partly based on my work. I never got any credit for that. Still, today, all player ratings in all sports games are how I made them in the 1995. They've just been making “next year's league file” from my IKNFL files for Front Page Sports Football since the dawn of time. Someone mentioned me wanting to leave my mark on your industry, but I did that almost from day 1. Player ratings in your sports games work the way they do because that's how I made it work, instead of the random numbers that had existed up until then. IKNFL was also the very first ever player created mod that was incorporated into the game. In the 1998 version they just included it on the disk so people didn't have to go find it themselves, since the game really wasn't worth playing without it, and I'm pretty sure that was the first time in your history that ever happened. But I can't even use that as part of a resume, because as always I never got any credit for it so it is perceived as a “lie”. Madden immediately copied it, and everyone else copies Madden... but it was actually me. So it's not like that hasn't already happened before. Player ratings in sports games was one thing, but I'm not going to watch the same thing happen again with my whole way of making games. That will get introduced in one of my games, or it will die with me and the world will lose it.

People seem to be taking Rube as being my point here. I assumed Rube would make a difference, so I have been focusing on Rube, but I am really just trying to find a way to make games. It's all I know, and I know it very well. I've been doing it for 40 years. I wrote the blog to show an example of my games, and my story, that is an example of what I do. I normally avoid going into this, but I was born with a very serious medical condition. I have had to spend my life inside, and hiding from the sun. The sun is lethal too me. Because of this, and my obsession with games, I have literally spent my entire life playing games. Beginning from about the time I was 12-years-old I started playing games pretty much all day long, every day, and have never stopped since then. I don't have anything else to do. It is unlikely that there is anyone else on the planet who has spent as much time playing games as I have, because I don't have anything else to do. If you have a normal life, it's not possible that you have spent as much time playing games as I have. I am literally trapped into a life of playing games. It has literally been my entire life, it really has, and unless someone else out there is in a similar situation there probably isn't anyone who has spent as much time playing games as I have. I am not normal. I am both obsessed with games and simulation design, and then forced into a situation where I have nothing to do except play or make games. I'm not bragging, I'd much rather have a normal life, but this really is who I am.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FYI, your rapid prototyping isn't a huge advantage over the video game industry because we commonly do the same thing. Not a similar digital equivalent, but literally exactly the process you have described.

Where a quick poker chip or hand - drawn card prototype is incapable of capturing the essence of an intended digital product, we then go to digital equivalents where we use pre-written engines and untextured shapes to assemble a prototype, often in less than an hour, or sometimes up to a day or so if something more novel or complex needs to be built.  Along with the items you listed, my own "tool box" also includes some A2 laminated sheets with various hex and square grids, as well as a plain laminated sheet, and some dry erase markers for quickly creating customised maps, polyhedral dice sets, a small tape measure, and a couple of different coloured decks of playing cards.

You keep dismissing the industry as years behind, but don't seem to realise that we have adopted many of your exact methods, or adapted methods to our needs where appropriate.

 

Your response on Armageddon Chess feedback is pleasantly level-headed, I'll get my thoughts structured, ask for feedback from the other players, and send it to you privately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pen and paper/poker chip prototyping is par for the course in game design, apart from situations like game jams where one has literally hours to make a game and can't really waste any time prototyping. Video game designers have been doing that kind of thing for decades, I would imagine. Probably as long as there have been video games. Hell, I've done that myself. It's a pretty obvious technique, if one is at all familiar with tabletop games. Rapid prototyping within existing games is very common, too, and sometimes these ideas develop into full-fledged games or even genres - the original DotA was a WarCraft III custom map!

You keep claiming that the video game industry is decades behind "you", but you keep painting yourself as an outsider who doesn't know anything about the professional world (which is difficult for me to believe given that everything people in here are talking about is public information; the game industry is remarkably open about techniques it uses, provided you actually pay attention to other people). If all you've experienced is this "hobbyist" industry you keep talking about, then how do you know for sure what really goes on in the "professional" world? What few coherent things you've said are nothing particularly novel. And having invented something first (which seems implausible to me, given how obvious the idea of "poker chip prototyping" is - imagine how many other people have arrived independently at the same concept) is completely meaningless; all that matters to us is what you can do now and what you've done recently.

On number of games made, I'll just leave this here... http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/276511/A_developers_journey_to_create_100_games_in_five_years.php

 

Edited by Oberon_Command

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

JB.  Please do, I would love to hear what people who played it think of Armageddon Chess.  Part of the marker problem, because there are probably too many of them even if they had icons, could be alleviated by using laminated cards with record tracks (boxes to mark) on the card.  Then the game could come with a grease pencil to mark the cards, which erases with a cloth or paper towel.  Then a few categories of markers could be eliminated, with things like hit points recorded on the cards.  As for combat being tedious, I am thinking maybe you were only using two dice?  I looked and I didn't mention using more than two dice.  What was intended is that you would have 4 pairs of dice so that you can roll up to four attacks at once.  Rolling the attacks one at a time would be tedious.  But let me know what you didn't like about it, the opinions of the earliest playtesters are always among the most valuable because anything the first people to play a game think is likely what most people will think.

Oberon.  As I had said, I don't know some of the methods you use to make games just as you don't know some of our ways.  From your description you do have a similar method of quickly messing with ideas, I had always assumed you would need to make little prototypes with programmer art to do that.  It sounds like you do exactly the same thing, don't waste time writing (or coding) until you know that you have something.

When I say you are decades behind where we are I am referring to the fact that we have been doing this since the late 1940's and you have been doing it since the early 1980's.  It is also a response, maybe a little over-the-top, to 30 years of being talked down too as if I am some kid who wants to make games but has no experience doing it.  In the earliest days of the computer game industry it was always "board games are not relevant too what we do, we are doing a completely different thing."  In the early days it was all a completely new thing, but they still had no interest in anyone from the board game industry even at the time we were the established game industry and you were just getting started.  There has always been a reason why we don't matter, the reason keeps changing but it is always there.  Our games were far more sophisticated than people today realize, especially Avalon Hill and ADB games.

It's not just me.  Almost nobody in your industry has ever even heard of Steve Cole.  He's the Jimi Hendrix of game designers, he should be a legend too you.  He invented the process by which you make games.  He introduced so many things that are staples in your games.  Energy Allocation, Mass-Based Proportional Movement, the Impulse Chart that is the next generation beyond the phased-turns that you know.  You make very few games that don't include at least a little bit of Steve Cole, and some of your most legendary games were just outright plagiarizing him.  Master of Orion is a Steve Cole game.  These days, he has been so influential that you regularly make games either based on his work, or re-creating his work, without even knowing it.  Faster Than Light is Steve Cole, Deadlock is Steve Cole.  He is almost certainly the most important game designer in your own history, and most of you have never even heard of him before.  It's not a situation that is limited too me.

And if you want to see this knowledge from us, not me, but us... we can talk about space ships for a while.  My specific little Star Fleet Universe branch of the old hobbyist game industry really has that subject down to a science.  You guy's know a lot of things we never knew, but we also know a lot of things you still don't know.  Especially when it comes to the SFB Staff and space ship games.  I am not nearly as big of a jerk as I appear too be, I am just fighting against an ingrained prejudice computer game industry people have always had against us.  Also, a misunderstanding of what our games were like.  For example SFB is, by far, the largest and most complex game ever made.  No computer game comes close, and none likely ever will.  Nobody even tries to make games as massive as our "Big Three" era did.  But the perception is "board games are simple and small compared to computer games" when, in reality, the opposite was true.  No RTS has come close to rivaling Advanced Squad Leader, either.  Not because we were better or smarter than you, but because it was a different era.  Our games were bigger, and lived on to be developed for decades.  SFB isn't a thing of the past, for example.  Still today, 40 years later, ADB still releases a new product for SFB about once every other month.  They are still going, it still isn't finished yet.  40 years and still counting!

Why would you expect to be able to compete with that?  Do you plan on spending 40 years making a computer game any time soon?  The most complex table-top games were much, much more than today's generation imagines they were.  As a result, we have this whole space ship thing down pretty well.  Maybe I should be talking about space ships instead of Rube...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Kavik Kang said:

Why would you expect to be able to compete with that?  Do you plan on spending 40 years making a computer game any time soon?  The most complex table-top games were much, much more than today's generation imagines they were.  As a result, we have this whole space ship thing down pretty well.  Maybe I should be talking about space ships instead of Rube...

 

I am pretty sure this has been asked before, but I am curious, and the textwalls in this thread do not make it easy to read everything.

 

What do you want to achieve here? With this thread, and your continued thread history on GD.net? Do you want recognition? Are you looking for a team (yet you seem to have dismissed people who wanted to team up with you)? Are you looking for money (when this forum by large is populated by hobbyists, small Indies and AAA Industry grunts, not the investors you would be looking for)? Are you looking for a job (why not start with the "careers" menu on GD.net)?

 

I think if you are looking for recognition, you got an answer on what you need to do to achieve it over and over again. Heck, reading that you actually presented a prototype and people tested it out in this forum makes me believe you are not even on the wrong track here. The only thing missing now is looking at the feedback and trying to improve on the design. After all, that is what you yourself claim made you good as a game designer. By playing rapid prototypes and iterating on your designs. Why not do the same when other people play your games?

 

If you are looking for a team... well. Maybe you got to start improving your own attidute before people start flocking in to help on your projects first. Nobody really likes being talked down to. You seem to be feeling the same. Would I want to work for a guy constantly rattling on about how much superior he is to me? How much you and what you did until now sucks? Hell no! Even if it was true (and I am making a HUGE leap of faith here), and you were the masterchieft of designers because you came from a superior race of godlike designers that went extinct with the advent of the video games, maybe stop your tirades about how crap modern games are, how inferior modern designers and work methodology is and start talking about WHY people should care (and should want to work with you).

Oh, and if you are looking for assembling a 100 man strong crew to build the next Eve Online... either make sure to recruits from 1000's of places like GD.net, or look elsewhere. Maybe have the funds ready to support such a goal.

 

If you are looking for investors.... definitely look elsewhere. Have you tried Kickstarter? If your group was so influental, and there where so many bigwigs contributing, why not ask the JPL Engineers and Military guys to contribute money to your cause? If you had NASA Engineers interested enough to contribute their free time to it 25 or 40 years ago, maybe they are ready to contribute some of the wealth they must have amassed in their professional life to your cause now if you sell it to them right?

Again, maybe work on your pitch. Huge, hard to read Textwalls do not sell products on Kickstarter. If selling a product is beneath your pedigree, I am sorry, but you will fail in life. Everyone got to sell at least themselves, nobody gets to be a star without first making a good pitch.

 

If you are looking for a job, did apply to jobs and get turned down again and again... maybe, just maybe, that attidute you show again and again lowered your chances considerably.

Did you talk down to your potential future boss like you do talk down to readers of this forum? Was your first sentence in the interview "I have been a game designer for 40 years, and your industry has no idea what real game design is."? Maybe you want to prove first that you are that superior before laying your superiority complex on the table... even if you can prove that you are as superior as you claim to be, you might get shot down because there is no way in hell any other person will fit into the office space next to your inflated ego.

Being good at what you do does not warrant you being a colossal **** to everyone around you. That might go down well for youtubers and movie stars that do not have to work in a team. For people that have to rely on teamwork to get anything done, good luck with that.

 

Edited by Gian-Reto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Kavik Kang said:

He introduced so many things that are staples in your games.  Energy Allocation, Mass-Based Proportional Movement, the Impulse Chart that is the next generation beyond the phased-turns that you know. You make very few games that don't include at least a little bit of Steve Cole, and some of your most legendary games were just outright plagiarizing him.

What is basically based on the first few weeks of a physics major. Simple integration, and Newtonian physics in a simple form. Lots of the games today do significantly more complex things. It's not plagiarizing, it's just implementing a simple principle in a way superior form.

Edited by sirpalee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/8/2017 at 4:42 AM, mikeman said:

So I went on my way, worked on my indie game, now have a job at EA DICE

Mike, we need to have a talk about where my weapon attachments went in Battlefield 1 ;)

I was not going to seriously reply to this thread, but having followed it and witnessed the malice against Hodgman (who most certainty knows what he is talking about), as well as gained a ridiculous amount of notifications, I've decided to give my two cents.  First of, you need to stop boasting about yourself -- especially since you DO NOT have the skills or experience to back up your claims.  You claim that you are a 'Devry graduate.'  As someone else noted before, that means absolutely nothing.  As a tech lead who hires people on a daily basis, I most certainly would not hire you for any position.  Your attitude sucks, your communication skills are poor, and you have absolutely no work (or work ethic) to show.  There is no way in hell I would ever let you around a client or potential publisher.  Moreover, I've been following your work since the "Pirate Dawn" days.  No one wants to read 500 pages worth of nonsense.  I coauthored a programming language (Ny; coauthored by Migi0027 -- another GameDev member) and we were not only able to present a working demo (of both the runtime and the compiler), but were able to author the outlining specification in 27 pages of spell checked, coherent work.  500 pages means nothing if there is no content backing it and you have to guess if document was written in the English language.  I will end my rant here as Hodgman has already hit the nail on the head.  The only advice I can give you is to shape up or get out.

 

And as a side note, I would stop blaming the "industry," and I would especially stop pissing upon GameDev members.  You would be surprised by not only what we know and what we have done, but where we work.  Not everyone here is a "hobbyist."

 

** Drops Mic **

Edited by ByteTroll

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bytetroll, you're not paying attention. He's not a Devry gradutate, he just *hates* Devry graduates. They're taking all his jerbs. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Master of Orion was pure plagiarism of the Star Fleet Universe, I am one of a very few people in this world who knows most of the details of exactly how that happened. But you don't need to know that story to know that Master of Orion was simply plagiarizing Steve Cole. It's blatantly obvious, and only barely concealed. All of the technologies, for example, are straight out of the Star Fleet Universe. There is no question about this, anyone who knows the SFU can tell you this. And it is not “way better”, MOO is like Candyland compared to the original and it is VERY BADLY done. A joke, really, compare to what it was stealing from. It's terrible compared to the original... and yet still a great game. That's how good SVC's games are, even a complete disaster like MOO turns out to be a classic. That's how much you can take away from one of his games and still leave your generation awestruck. He is then most influential game designer of all time and literally your founding father of game design. As I said, these days you make very few games that don't included at least a little bit of Steve Cole.

I don't “hate” Devry graduates, I point out the fact that you consider a 20-year old qualified but not someone who has been designing games since before your industry even existed. You people are so indescribably arrogant that you actually defend that ridiculous notion. That speaks for itself, to sane and rational people. And I have not spent 10 years posting here. I posted here for about a week 10 years ago, nothing in between, and a few times over the last year. I have, however, spent over 20 years working on the Pirate Dawn Universe. The PDU is a “Big Three” like game universe the likes of which the computer game industry has never seen. It was all valid game design work, not programming.

When I say “you don't hire pure game designers” I am immediately told that you do, and I am wrong. But then, as you can see in this thread, as soon as I say “OK, then, here I am. And here's a 500 page preview of the life's work of pure game designer” you say you immediately start telling me that is useless, I've been wasting my time, and I must become a programmer. Just like you just did here. Make up your minds, do you hire pure game designers or not. If you do, then my life's work is valid and there is a 500 page glimpse of it here. Make up your minds. I say you don't allow pure game designers into your industry, several posts here seem to agree with that. If what I posted on my blog is nothing, and until I become a programmer I am worthless, you don't hire pure game designers. Why are you telling me that I must become a programmer now? In the past you've always insisted that wasn't necessary, and that you do hire pure game designers. Make up your minds!!!

The closest thing the modern game industry has to a group of “founding fathers” is Steve Cole and the SFB Staff. We literally invented the process by which you make games today. I'm not just a game designer who has been designing games longer than your industry existed, I am also from the group of people that really can be considered to be your founding fathers. That 500 page preview of the PDU is an example of the work of one of your own founding fathers. But you know so little of your own history that you don't know this. This is how you treat one of your own founding fathers. And then you completely discount 20 years of work and tell me until I am a programmer I don't count, and at the same time insist that you do hire pure game designers. I don't have to be a programmer. Make up your minds, which is it?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really hate feeding trolls, but I gatta ask- do you know how to speak without using hyperbole?  Like would you describe your breakfast as "the best toasted bread made using techniques the likes of which the breakfast industry can only imagine!  I've been eating breakfast since before you mere mortals knew what breakfast was!  Something something simulation of God!"

So I have a friend who constantly complains that it's too difficult to find a job because they're "overqualified" for every place they applied to.  Sometimes overqualified actually means not-at-all-appropriate-for-this-role and experience has nothing to do with it.  Maybe you really do have a lot of experience in game design, but you need to be able to demonstrate that you're offering something the industry needs.  Gaming companies need to have that supply of young, moldable, a bit naive but with a good work ethic kind of employees to fill junior roles.  I'm not sure what you're even claiming to offer to the industry, since you're able to say so little in so many words.

For the record, even if I knew what a Cybergod was, I don't think I want one.  I certainly can't imaging how one would help me make fun games.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

I don't “hate” Devry graduates, I point out the fact that you consider a 20-year old qualified but not someone who has been designing games since before your industry even existed. 

This thinking pervades every one of your posts and I have to address it specifically. The amount of time you've spent "designing games" is not relevant information without further qualification. Duration of experience does not matter; the nature of the experience matters. You're appealing to an authority that is not valid.

As an example, consider William McGonagall, who was a notoriously bad poet. He wrote somewhere around 200 poems over the course of 25 years. By your logic, we should consider him a more accomplished poet than someone who wrote poetry for only 5 years; and yet, having read some of his poetry, I can say that teenagers have written better poetry than he did. If I needed someone to write a poem for me, I would not hire William McGonagall, I would hire the teenager, on the grounds that McGonagall's experience isn't useful to me.

Another example: in the early days of Microsoft (about 1976 or so), Bill Gates was a programmer, being involved with writing Microsoft's early BASIC products. After that, he slipped into a management role, however, and ceased to have programming responsibilities very early on. He may have been a founding father in Microsoft's history (and indeed, in the world of computation), but there is no way in hell I would hire him for a programming position. His experience simply wouldn't be relevant for that.

In fact, now that I think of it, I've worked professionally with some older guys who, like you claimed 30-40 years of experience. The ones who constantly drew attention to their experience tended to be the ones who were stuck in the '90s - unable to change their habits to match the times, or work well with others. The subject tended to come up when they weren't getting their way and they wanted to assert dominance over other devs. Most of them didn't actually write great code, despite their years. At this point, talking about one's past achievements as much as you do is an active red flag for me that says "do not hire this person, he will be arrogant and probably incompetent."

"Number of years doing something" does not entitle you to a job, relevance, or respect. It doesn't even imply that you're competent! Being the one who invented something everyone uses does not entitle you to those things, either. That's simply not how the world works; past experience does not dictate future performance. I suggest you erase this fallacious assumption from your thinking and stop harping on how long you've been doing things for. Swallow your bitterness and find some other way to market yourself.

I suggest, for a start, talking about what you have done rather than how long

Edited by Oberon_Command

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Addressing a few points in no particular order:

 

Pure design positions are indeed a role in the industry, although they're comparatively rare and generally require a proven skill set. Most people in these roles got their chance by making their own projects, by being given a chance on some low-risk project, or by having experience in tabletop game design. Steve Cole is a good example of someone who could qualify for such a position. There are actually entry level pure design roles as well, but they're significantly more limited in scope and don't match what you with to do - you would probably consider them more akin to a design assistant, working on small bits of a project as part of a more senior designer's team. 

The reason noone is really considering this as a viable option for you, is as I covered earlier in the topic: you simply do not have a verifiable track record of relevant experience. You may well have designed hundreds of games and be very good at it, but as far as you've made us aware you only have verifiable credits on two released products: as a contributor to the SFB Tactics Manual (along with 25 other people credited for design), a design credit for Sinistar Unleashed (which had very unpopular design), and perhaps if you're lucky and someone remembers it your IKNFL mod. You haven't claimed to have any relevant formal education.

You may well be a fantastic designer with a wealth of experience, but you have nothing to prove it, so it's exceedingly unlikely a business would risk money on the chance that you'll be as good as or better than someone with verifiable qualifications - noting again that the sort of pure design role you're interested in is generally not entry level and isn't going to fresh-faced Devry graduates either.

 

So, if pure design roles are a thing, why do people keep telling you to learn how to program? They're actually giving you different advice, not aimed at getting you in to a pure design role. For the reasons above, people have trouble believing you would be able to get into a pure design role, so they're offering you an alternative: learn to make things yourself so you don't have to be held back by the industry, or so that you can produce something suitably convincing to get into a position you want in the industry. Remember above how I said pure design roles generally only go to people with a proven track record? Sometimes those people get that proven track record by learning another discipline such as programming or art so they can work in other roles until they prove themselves. In short, the suggestions to learn programming do not actually contradict the suggestions that pure design roles exist.

 

In sales, they say that it doesn't really matter what's true - it matters what is believable.  You're essentially trying to sell yourself to us, and you're constantly making some pretty huge claims about your abilities and about what 'rube' can do. Maybe the things you're saying are really true, they're certainly not impossible. They're certainly not believable though.

You tell us you're a founding father of our industry, but none of us have heard of you and you aren't credited on the published products to prove it. Maybe it's true. But it's not believable.

You tell us rube is 'a functioning simulation of god', but you won't share anything but the smallest details (and you make us wade through the most amazing amounts of text to get those small glimpses), and you even claim the full potential of rube can't be realised with current day computing limitations. It may well be true. But it isn't believable.

Stop trying to sell us your truth, and sell us what is believable - once we believe, maybe people will start to see your truth.

It's not believable that you're a founding father of the industry with years decades of design experience on hundreds of games, because the games aren't there for us to look at, so instead show us something we can believe: polish up some smaller, simpler designs and just show us that you're a good designer.

It's not believable that rube is 'a functioning simulation of god' (whatever that means), so stop talking about the unprovable possibilities that current computing can't even handle, and stop talking about things you aren't willing to share details of. Talk about something we can believe, and show us what these lesser forms of rube can actually do in an implemented design.

Don't talk about the history, and don't talk about future possibilities: stick to what you can actually show us right now (or in 6 months or in a year if you need time to work) in full detail, so that we will have no choice but to believe. That is how you can get some actual interest in the other stuff.

 

Star Fleet Battles is one of the most (if not the most) complex and detailed game rule sets in existence, and you keep discussing how other games (such as Master of Orion) pale in comparison. You keep saying this shows how much more skilled the designers such as Steve Cole are.

I don't think anyone disputes the skill of Steve Cole and other table top designers. They're work is fantastic, and many of their games have a very loyal following and have made plenty of money, often for years.

But you don't seem to allow for the fact that taste in games is subjective.  You love how complex and amazingly detailed the rules of SFB are, but many people hate it for exactly the same reason.  When a designer produces a simpler game, it doesn't necessarily mean they are less skillful, it just means they had a different objective in mind. Often, these designers have been very skillful in designing a less complex game that appeals to the great number of people who prefer simpler games.

 

You've mentioned a few times that the industry has no respect for table top and board game designers. I'm sure there are some people who don't, but I can assure you this isn't some all-encompassing attitude shared by the whole industry. I don't think I've ever spoken to anyone about it who didn't have a huge respect for those designers. Many people in the industry play and love table top and board games.  Many study them to learn. Many design them as prototypes, or as full products to develop their skills. Many table top designers have made successful transitions to our industry and are now well respected designers. 

You're having trouble finding anyone who respects you, because (at least in my experience of you) you're all outrageously rude talk with no demonstrable credits or released product to show that you're actually worthy of respect, but in general I'd say our industry has a huge respect for table top gaming.

 

It isn't laughable to defend Devry graduates getting positions while you can't get one, because you aren't after the same entry level roles that they get, and they are more demonstrably qualified than you for the roles they are able to get. You may well be a great designer, but you can't really prove it right now, whereas a fresh graduate can be assumes to at least have a baseline level of skill in the field taught by their course. Noone wants to make the same assumption about you when all you're giving is your word that it's true.

 

You say the Pirate Dawn design document was actually quite well organised. It wasn't. I'm one of the people who tried to read it, and at least when I looked it was a disorganised unapproachable mess riddled with typos. Maybe that's because 'the industry wanted you to add a bunch of stuff', but that doesn't change what you presented. It just was not. If you'd like to fix it up (or have already done so in the past 10 years) I'm sure some people would actually try to read it again, but there's no point just telling us we're wrong about it - multiple people tried to read it, and we all have the same assessment. For whatever reason, it was a mess.  

If you have the time to write 500 pages, you probably have the time to go back and fix it up as well. Don't excuse it or explain it, just fix it.

 

Lastly, you seem to think this offensive, overly wordy cult-of-personality you have going on is helping you, and have even suggested a few times that you "have to put it on to get attention".

It isn't helping you to get any valuable attention. It just makes you look like an insane rambling crank who doesn't know what he's talking about, to the point that a great many people think you're trolling.

If you're genuinely pretending to have this abrasive personality, knock it off. It's not serving you well. You've got plenty of people reading your posts and engaging in conversation, so stop screwing around and do something useful with the attention. Stop driving away attention you've got with paragraphs of irrelevant or unbelievable nonsense.

Put your money where your mouth is, and show us you can walk the walk and not just talk the talk. If you're a brilliant designer, show us some actual, playable, brilliant designs.

 

Feedback on Armageddon Chess will be coming in a day or so, we were pleasantly surprised that you claim to actually want to hear it, so some of the others are getting their thoughts together for me to pass on too.

 

Good luck, shut up, and for the love of all that is good and holy show us some actual games! 

Hope some of that helps in some way. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't want to attempt to reply to everything that was said here, obviously that reply would be too long.  I did not just help with the SFB tactics manual, I as a member of the Staff who represented the Romulans during my time on the staff.  And I was on the staff during one of the three critical periods of the design of the game, the design phase of the final "Captain's Edition" of the game.  That is why I am one of the more well known people in the history of the SFB Staff, I was there at a critical period.  I was also one of only four people to ever be hired by the company, I actually worked at Task Force Games.

I have been hired by every game company that has ever interviewed me.  Both of them, Task Force Games and GameFX.  You generally ignore pure game designers.  Only one computer game industry ever so much as responded too me... and they hired me.  In 20 years of doing this your way, only a single company ever so much as responded too me and they hired me.  I've been hired by every game company who ever responded too me.  

I was not comparing Master of Orion to SFB, I was pointing out that Master of Orion plagiarized SFB.  And it really is like kids playing with SFB in a sandbox.  It's really primitive, even childish.  Master of Orion is like Candyland.  You really have no concept of how far behind us you are when it comes to space ship games.  The biggest thing that prevents you from making a good space ship game is that you don't know the tactics of space combat, what I call the science of "2D ACM without gravity".  If you don't know the nature of the fight, you can't make a game about space ships fighting each other.  It is a very complex subject that has taken a lot of very smart people decades to begin to put together.  As an example, their is a big problem with Deadlock that will prevent it from ever being able to truly shine.  The ships move so slow compared to the rate of fire of the weapons, due to BSG canon, that it can never be made to be an interesting fight.  It will inevitably be a slugfest with almost no tactics too it other than "get in range and shoot until a ship blows up".  I know some ways of making what our tactical knowledge calls a "knife fight" more interesting than what you are seeing in Deadlock, but that is still lacking all the dynamics of how this actually works.  Without the primary phases of the fight present (approach, battle pass, separation) all you are left with is a knife fight slugfest that is pretty boring compared to what you have when you understand the tactics of the situation and design the game to work with those tactics.  This is just a tiny little example of an endlessly complex subject.  But this has always been the root cause of why you can't really make space ship games.  If you don't know how the fight plays out, you have no idea how to make the game work or even how to design the ships.

It's far too much to write here, but the tactical knowledge accumulated by the SFB Staff over the last 40 years is akin to the laws of physics of how this all works.  They apply to any situation where objects are fighting in an environment with no gravity, even a game like Diablo for example.  You simply don't possess the knowledge to make a good space ship game, because you don't know the tactics of the fight.  You are "flying blind" when you attempt to make a game that focuses on combat between ships.  We really do know what we are doing, we really do have this down to a science.  I really would make space ship games at a whole new level that you have never seen before, and many other current and former SFB experts could as well.  It's not just me.  You really have no idea how far ahead of you we are when it comes to this specific subject, or how blown away you would be by one of us making a space ship game.  We may as well be from a different planet compared to what you do with space ships.  That's not exaggerating, in fact it is understating the situation.

 

I thought I'd add a bonus to this thread for anyone who has actually read the PDU story, and paid close attention to the song lyrics along the way since they are always the spine and backbone of the story. I shouldn't be revealing this one, but at this point I will almost certainly never get to make the 10th game of the PDU... so why not. If you got into the story and know it, every word of this song will have great meaning too you. This is a part of the very end of the story of Fallen Angel Rising, one of the first songs of the end sequence story of the entire chronological timeline. If you've read it, it is probably obvious too you that the sun had to have exploded at some point during Astral Invasion. In Fallen Angel Rising, about 300 years after that, humanity is going extinct. There are very few humans left in the galaxy, the last generation of what little is left of humanity will soon die off and there will be no more humans left in the galaxy. Cindy/Ashling is about to “do her thing” and give humanity a second chance. This song is the beginning of the end of Cindy's story, and of humanity's story. Every word of it is profoundly relevant if you have taken in the story on my blog, if not it's just a song that won't have much meaning too you. I shouldn't be giving this one away, this is a present and thank you to anyone who has taken the time to read my story and likes it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh... And I have shown you 14 inter-woven games on my blog... How many more will it take?  One is playable, another is a first draft "starting point for discussion".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.