Jump to content
  • Advertisement
Kavik Kang

Nobody Wants A Cybergod?

Recommended Posts

Hodgeman.  I am not a programmer, although I have used computers since the days of DOS.  I think, in reality, you would have a classification of "programmer" that describes what I can directly do.  I have been involved with making one computer game before, Sinistar: Unleashed at GameFX.  There it took one of their programmers about an hour to show me how to alter the values they exposed too me in raw text data files (getting all those parentheses to be equal, etc), and then after asking him questions occasionally for the first couple weeks, I made all of the game levels using those raw data files and testing them with local builds.  So, whatever you would call that, that is my level of "programming" ability based on having been pretty good with DOS and system configuration (for playing games, of course) on the earliest PCs.  I am just a game designer.

I have design documents in various stages for most of the games, all of the first half of them.  My "board game primitive" proof-of-concept of Rube game is Territories, where I first noticed/discovered it.  I've been creating this universe for about 20 years now, the PDU began in 1997.  I first noticed what I now call "Rube" within Territories, which is very old and has existed in many forms over the years.  Since noticing Rube in it, a new "full notes" version of it is about have way to being done.  It would take me another month or two of working on it to bring it back to what I call "full notes" form, which from there takes 3 or 4 months to bring it to what I call a "first draft" state like Pirate Dawn is on my blog.  That is what I consider to be a starting point for discussion in a game development process, not anything close to a rigid guide to creating the game.  Since noticing Rube as a physical construct, Territories has been dismantled back to starting over because I have such a better understanding of what it is now.  I learned long ago not to bother taking a design document to "first draft" state, like the old version of Pirate Dawn on my blog, because you always wind up undoing it all later when too many new ideas have made it obsolete.  So I generally only go to "full notes", where Territories/Rube is headed back for, which is always then only 3 or 4 months away from being ready to go.

 

Grumpyolddude.  This is a semi-humorous response, but also a true one.  That's Rube for you... One of the last of my blog posts describes "MeeSo", and you get to meet him.  MeeSo "with the tank tread", is the "Rube II" of Territories.  I doubt it will help much, though!  Haha!  I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist... and it does also answer your question.  MeeSo is Rube, most of him anyway.  If only he didn't have that crippling tank tread!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Advertisement

I've given the Deadlock example I came here to give, hopefully it makes a difference. I'm happy to discuss this if anyone wants too, like some of the questions I just answered. But I'm not going to argue for the sake of arguing and prolong this thread with off-topic issues. I am not trying to make an annoyance of myself. So other than any serious questions anyone has, I gave it one more try. There is nothing that I can do about your industry being absolutely insistent that a 20-something recent graduate of the Devry School of Game Design is an “expert professional worthy of consideration” and a person who has been designing games for over 40 years, longer than your industry has even existed, is a “know nothing fool who we won't even consider” who can't possibly compare to a 22-year-old who says “I like games”. This dogmatic insistence of yours is just plain incompetence, and I can't overcome that. In reality, Rube makes a good argument that today, in 2017, I am the top person in this field. I did it! Towards the end of my life I completed the work of the primary branch of the hobbyist game industry. A general simulation of time combined with reality that results in the framework of a uniform artificial universe, the literal “Holy Grail” of game design. That's not arrogance or delusions of grandeur, I would think that it's pretty obvious that at this moment in time I am a serious candidate for being called “the top person in the field today”. And yet, in your minds, not even worthy of consideration compared to a child with almost no experience or knowledge of the subject. That's just incompetence on your part, and there is nothing that I can do about that.

I will not have internet access between August 20th and the last week of September. So, in the unlikely event that anyone tries to contact me, I won't see any e-mails during that month. Maybe, if I am lucky, someone in this industry might finally decide that maybe, just maybe, someone with 40 years of experience might actually be a better choice, and know just a little bit more, and make better games, than a 22-year-old who says “I like games a lot”. It's a radical concept in your minds, I know, but maybe somebody out there might actually consider it.

Finally, if there is anyone out there who actually got into the story of the Pirate Dawn Universe presented on my blog and, taken all together it probably all amounts to a 200+ page book, I would very much like to hear what you think about it. The story itself. I'm no great writer, and I fully realize that this story will never shine for other people as it does for me until a professional editor fixes my elementary-level grammar, prose, and composition. That's not my talent, that's their talent, and just like simulation design, or playing football like John Elway, you have to be born with that talent. You can't learn it, not to be truly good at it. But I really have spent over 20 years coming up with this mythology, pseudo-science, and intricately inter-woven story of the history of all of humanity from the formation of the Earth to the explosion of the sun... and a few hundred years beyond that, actually. When I spent a year putting the blog together from my files on the 19 games of the Pirate Dawn Universe (I don't mention the “side-games” I would never live long enough to make at this point on the blog), I thought I couldn't lose this time around because by focusing on the story this time I would at least finally find out what people thought about the story. Still now, if nothing else comes of this I really would like to at least hear what people think of the story. At least just one person, but the more the better. You can send me a private message.

I'm really shocked I haven't heard from at least one Rush fan... I would have thought at least one Rush fan would have said at least something about it! You won't pick up on much of what is there by skimming through it, I'd really like to hear from someone who has actually gotten into it, and there is kind of a built in test for that. So I'd really like to hear from anyone who has come to realize who Cindy McAllen actually is. I intentionally made that more obvious on the blog than it is in my files, anyone who has actually gotten into the story will eventually realize who she is. So if you know who Cindy is, I'd love to hear what you think of the story. Even if you hate it... especially if you hate it! But if you like it, too, that would of course also be nice to hear. My biggest concern is the “weird, off-the-wall, oddness” I have tried to add too it in some places. I love it, but I've always worried about how it all comes across to other people. So if anyone out there has actually got into the story, I'd really like to hear what people think about it. Just for myself, and to maybe tone down the “strangeness” if that just isn't working. I want to complete the “spine and ribs” of the story just for myself even if I never wind up making any of the games.

“...and the stars look down.” - Pirate Dawn Universe ;-)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Kavik Kang said:
2 hours ago, Hodgman said:

Do you actually have any code or documents yet? Anything concrete that people can use themselves?

No.

^^I fixed that for you^^

You are very good at posting huge amounts of text, but don't have anything concrete that other people can interact with... which means we have nothing to talk about, and most people have very little motivation to dig through your massive amounts of text.

If you want people to be excited for you, either produce a concrete thing that they can play with, or, work on conveying your ideas in a much more concise and clear form.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Kavik Kang said:

This dogmatic insistence of yours is just plain incompetence, and I can't overcome that. In reality, Rube makes a good argument that today, in 2017, I am the top person in this field. I did it!

I dont think anyone has yet Argued that Rube isnt some revolutionary breakthrough in gaming ... what people have argued is.. the very little youve said so far.. already exists, the slightly more youve elaborated on just either isnt possible technically yet due to hardware limitations, or just doesnt work in a non turn based environment ... 

And then the rest of rube you refuse to share because "someone will steal it" ...  so you may be the best game designer ever... but your refusal to share the design, makes that a moot point entirely ... I mean, if I told you that I know how to cause perfect cell replication in the human body... but im not going to share that... it just seems likely that I havent.. and even if I have.. its a moot point...

You mostly, from your posts here just seem like inconsistent ramblings about how old turn based board games are better than modern games and how you like simulations ... If you actually divulged some details to what makes rube special instead of just "because its special" .. then ya know.. people may take you more seriously 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's been very nearly ten years since Marc/Kavik/Pirate_Lord started posting here and nothing has really changed in his posts.  I don't expect he's likely to suddenly change and actually explain himself now.  I'll leave it up to each individual to decide if they want to spend time engaging in this conversation again or not.

@Kavik Kang : Just how many times are you planning on beating this dead horse making "one last post" about this?  If nothing else, it's hurting your credibility when you don't keep your word over and over again.   You don't even ever try anything new, just the same old overly long insane ramblings where you don't give any actual details but insist we should believe you have this revolutionary idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, jbadams said:

It's been very nearly ten years since Marc/Kavik/Pirate_Lord started posting here and nothing has really changed in his posts.


I know, right? At least he could learn the difference between "to" and "too". :P

Also, he still *hates* Devry, man. :)

Edited by mikeman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Kavik Kang said:

today, in 2017, I am the top person in this field. I did it!

Congratulations on your victory!

I think we're done here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

--------------
Assuming a computer existed that could handle it, which I doubt is the case right now, and the many decades it would take just to create the content, my Rube can handle everything that exists in reality simultaneously. It is an “artificial universe” that, assuming an “Ultimate Infinity Rube” (where all of Rube's components have infinite capacity), could re-recreate the entire planet Earth and everything on it in exacting detail. 

--------------

Assuming a computer existed that could handle it, *any* programming language could do that. You just need to write the correct instructions.

I really think, like Scouting Ninja said, you've re-"discovered" what one can do with general-purpose programming, and you're so overwhelmed by it because you're unaware that...we've already been doing it. Deadlock's missiles behaving "dumb"(if they do, I'm taking your word for it) isn't because its designers lack the language to describe a "smart" behaviour. It's all just scripting. Write a script that implements a missile with finite instead of infinite fuel, and it happens. Basically, with any turing-complete programming language you can implement any set of rules you can think of. Yeah...it *is* "kind of magic"...but we already know it?

Now, I *assume* what you're getting at(it's really hard to get through all the walls of text) is : Okay we wrote a new script that now implement the missiles with finite fuel, so if you fire a missile after a ship that is accelerating away from you, it will not reach it. But that doesn't automagically alter the behaviour of the pilots - they are still firing missiles the "old" way. Two solutions are :


1) Update the pilot logic script, so it takes into account now that missiles have finite fuel - calculate before firing if the missile can actually make a hit before running out of fuel. This is an ad-hoc solution, each time you add a new "behaviour" like "finite fuel", you must update the pilot AI too.

2) Have a more general-purpose solution. The pilot AI simulates internally the trajectory of the missile, up until some time T. Predict the future, that is. In intervals, the pilot asks "what if I launch a missile now"? The game engine can answer that question by creating a "parallel" simulation where the missile is launched, and examine what happens. If the simulation shows the missile launch will result in good hit, then the pilot actually does launch it(or has some % chance of launching it, if we want the pilot not to always be correct).

This is more general-purpose, because, if implemented correctly, you don't need to update the pilot AI each time you alter the behaviour of the missiles - the hypothetical/parallel simulation the game runs in order to ask the question "if I launch the missile now, what will happen to it" takes into account whatever missile behaviour you have implemented - heat seeking, finite fuel, electronic warfare, whatever. The downside is, of course, it's usually more performance-intensive to do, especially when you consider all the permutation of decisions you need to make. This is indeed as if each pilot is asking an omniscient "god" - "if I launch a missile now, will it result in a good hit" and this "god"(the game engine that is) creates a parallel world where the missile is fired, simulates it up until X time, and comes up with an answer. The only thing the game can't know is the human player's reaction - it can only guess at what are the most probable. I'm *guessing* this is what your magical "Rube" is supposed to do, but again it's very hard to decipher your walls of text, and you're not being very specific anyway.
 

------------

I am already aware of all of that Scouting Ninja, and I play modern games all the time.  You are speaking Avalon Hill too me, that's first generation stuff.  70 years old from my perspective

------------

 

No, he's demonstrating what algorithms are. So, you know. About 2500 years from our perspective.

Edited by mikeman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not as if nobody's ever implemented "missiles" that had limited range and relied only on sensors to track their targets. This footage is from a game that's supposed to come out next year.

And this is gameplay footage from "Cold Waters," the spiritual successor to "Red Storm Rising" - a submarine game that came out in 1989. Pretty much all cold war-era and post-cold war era sub simulators have wire-guided homing torpedoes and missiles that have limited fuel and can have their seekers confused by countermeasures. I've seen AIs in these games do things like send commands to re-aim their torpedoes when I successfully evade them.

"Cold Waters" was made in Unity, I believe, which is something that you have easy access to (https://unity3d.com/).

Edited by Oberon_Command

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well yeah, that's the point, I don't think anybody here is arguing that we lack the "language" to implement any behaviour we want into a game's entities. It's just a matter of figuring out what kind of rules we want to implement, and actually doing it.

I mean, at least Kavig Kang *has* given a concrete example, but that only made things more confusing.

----------------------

For example, if the player tells two different ships to fire missiles at a single target both ships won't just fire missiles at the same time. The “AI” would determine, based on the known movement plots of the firing ships and target, when each ship needed to launch the missiles for them to arrive at the target at the same time. And then that would be made to happen through the impulses with their embedded sequence of play. And now you can imagine a captain saying “Wait for it... One more second... Fire!” in this battle when only one of the ships launch at the beginning of Deadlock's “time bar turn”, and the closer one delays until the timing will be right. Baby Rube “planning the future” to make Deadlock appear to be “more realistic”. “It's a Kind of Magic”;-)

----------------------

Cool I guess, but, like others have said, that's...just programming? I'm half a mind at this point that Kavik Kang, whenever he sees a game lacking an "X" behaviour he considers should be in the game, he thinks the designers were literally unable to describe this behaviour. I actually think, like I said, he re-created in his mind the concept of algorithms and general-purpose programming, the basic concept of game loop and/or input-processing-output and thinks it's something new. I mean, I am really trying to decipher his walls of text, but he uses weird expressions to describe familiar concepts:

- "Treadmill of time" : Okay, so the game world updates its state in discrete time steps? That's it? That's what every game does.

- "Functioning simulation of God" : Joking aside, as "God" we could probably describe an entity that has perfect knowledge about the current state of every component of the world and can perfectly predict its future state(omniscience), and also can change the state of any component at will(omnipotence). For our own physical universe, that would be the God(s) of monotheistic religions. For a virtual universe, a game that is, ...that's just the game engine, the program itself. So again, what are we talking about here?

Of course, I could be wrong, but he has to give us at least one example of an actual problem that "Rube" solves. in what way it makes existing games "better". So far the most he has given is "Deadlock's missiles don't do this thing" and naturally the response was "okay...but we could program them to do it"? Does "Rube" generates the rules on its own or something? And based on what? 

Edited by mikeman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Advertisement
×

Important Information

By using GameDev.net, you agree to our community Guidelines, Terms of Use, and Privacy Policy.

We are the game development community.

Whether you are an indie, hobbyist, AAA developer, or just trying to learn, GameDev.net is the place for you to learn, share, and connect with the games industry. Learn more About Us or sign up!

Sign me up!