I dont mind your take on it. thats definately not a standard rig. I could have the deformations smooth for every pose. but I prefer not to. so there is a noticable difference. when I have a pose that is completely smooth. another subtle change
On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 PM, tyree said:trying to tell me anything about 3d is a waste of time. I know more because I have been doing it longer
Wow, glad I didn't get the time to read this. Considering I am dealing with a similar situation at work I might just have "flipped" over this. 
My advice to you is this: Just because you have been doing it longer just means you know a lot of old ways for doing things. How you use that to your advantage is up to you, however it does not mean what you know is the only right way; things changed for a reason.
On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 PM, tyree said:why because the only reason art exist. is because its done by hand
That can't be the only reason art exists. Personally for me art is communication, a way for me to show people what I mean when words fail me.
On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 PM, tyree said:really it should be mandatory to learn 2d animation before considering 3d animation.
It mostly still is. The 12 principals are thought in 2D, we where even tasked with creating a actual flip book animation.
On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 PM, tyree said:draw a human like rough shape standing still using lines...
Only lines, I think this exercise could be worth doing. I will try it tomorrow.
On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 PM, tyree said:why 3 mintues because you will get tired of doing the same walk over and over and you will change it.
Having done many walk animations I doubt this will happen only after 3 minutes of walking.
12 frames per second * 60 = 270 * 3 = 810
Considering that each model will be +/- 200 triangles. That is only +/- 162 000 triangles or 81000 polygons. So in theory it's only as much work as a single high poly model, +/- 8 hours worth of work.
On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 PM, tyree said:as far as 3d anime its horrible. watch the 2d version of anime. then a 3d version of the same show. the 3d version is always less than
Considering that most 3D versions of the 2D one is done with less effort and a lower budget this would be true. However look at the ones who aren't a copy of a classic 2D one.
Then there is also the fact that 3D has been used alongside 2D animations since the old Disney Tarzan. So most 2D animation from 1999 and newer can't even be considered pure 2D animations. Of course some animation started using 3D even before that.
My initial reaction is I dont know what I'm looking at or what it's supposed to be doing. It looks horrible honestly.
I only had half an hour of free time, managed only 12 frames in that time.
On 8/23/2017 at 4:45 PM, tyree said:why 3 mintues because you will get tired of doing the same walk over and over and you will change it.
I can already see this theory is wrong. I am so focused on getting the animation to just look like a animation that I already had to remove some of personality I wanted in the walk.
It reminds me of when I first started animation, I am so focused on the skill that I forget about the art.
I also got myself an audio book of The Illusion of life. You do realize that even for the old 2D animation style the in-betweens weren't important. Disney literally hired people off the street to do the in-betweens for the animations. With modern computers we have a hundred times more control over our in-betweens than say asking a complete stranger to make them.
what you dont realize the personality is always there. when being done by hand. all you had to do was stick with it. you seem to think because you have done animation where the program is doing part of the work. that bears some resemblance to animation being done by hand. it does not. your not doing 3 minutes of animation by hand in one day. that will take several days off and on. if not a week, but because you could not do it quickly you gave up.
it seemed like you were learning because you were. you cant practice the principles of 2d animation. without doing 2d animation. its not possible to have more control than doing it yourself. all the curves and different key types. that you consider to be more control are imitations of whats done by using more than one drawing. but a program can only do calculations. it has no idea what is or is not art
as far as a company hiring people to do in betweens. that is a large company trying to make a deadline. has absolutely nothing to do with individual learning
the first animated movie to break thru with 3d was ghost in the shell. there are scenes where you know your looking at 3d. its obivious, but there are scenes where to this day. people dont know what there looking at is 3d. because they treated it no different than 2d. and painted it frame by frame.
what caused people to look at 3d in a different light. was blood the last vampire. the original not the remakes. in this animation 3d is in your face thru out the whole move. but unlike all the previous times where 3d is clearly is out place and does not fit with the world. in blood the 3d is completely quiet and only there in a supportive role. to support the 2d.
this is when 3d started being used for backgrounds. once everyone had evidence 3d does not have to be loud and obnoxious. or constantly break the world
3 hours ago, tigral said:days off and on. if not a week, but because you could not do it quickly you gave up.
First of it takes more than a few days on and off. 30 Min per 12 frames it's going to take me more than 200 days. I only get an hour a day to mess with this.
So I optimized it. Now using Blender's grease pencil - there hand drawn animation tool- and my own python script I can draw lines that turn into rectangles. Since curve modeling is a actual form of modeling it still counts and as drawing each frame is within the rules as long as I don't use auto gen tools for the in-betweens I am fine.
I am now doing 4-6 seconds of animation a day, instead of 1-2 seconds, still it's going to take a year but it will be done.
3 hours ago, tigral said:you cant practice the principles of 2d animation. without doing 2d animation. its not possible to have more control than doing it yourself.
The 12 principles apply to all animation so you clearly don't mean that. So what your saying is I can't learn drawing by painting?
If that is what your implying then I will point out that you are wrong. Any form of art teaches you how to produce other art. That is why so many people say that to model something in 3D you need to know how to draw it. What they are saying is that the same understanding used to draw is also used to make 3D models.
4 hours ago, tigral said:all the curves and different key types. that you consider to be more control are imitations of whats done by using more than one drawing.
From doing this exercise I learned that in-betweens have only one function, they control how smooth a animation looks. The actual animation is done using the key frames and extremes frames. Before this exercise I thought they where important for timing and easing in and out, however I get the same result with just two extremes.
The point of the curves is to counter the limits of the computer. It allows manual control over the small details.
4 hours ago, tigral said:as far as a company hiring people to do in betweens. that is a large company trying to make a deadline. has absolutely nothing to do with individual learning
It has. Would you allow some random stranger off the street to do your key frames, do do your animation and take credit for it? Would you allow say me, to take that animation your making and finish it for you just so that it can be done on time?
Of course not, no one would hand over the important part of the art over to someone else. If you did it would stop being yours. So if the in-betweens are the most important part of a animation then clearly the artist behind the Disney classics are people who's names we don't even know.
4 hours ago, tigral said:the first animated movie to break thru with 3d was ghost in the shell.
This is debatable. If we include real life objects drawn over then 3D/2D mix animation is as old as animation; if not it started around 1983. There is actually no way of knowing the exact date 3D animation was mixed in with 2D.
3D work has been spotted in many old 2D animations. Although like you said it was used as a canvas for drawing on instead of just rendered graphics.
Don't fear about me completing this task. I plan to learn all I can from it, to hold one more edge over others.
Have you ever tried modeling every frame for a animation?
the inbetweens do far more than just control speed. there is an entire world there
its good that your still keeping at it. I did not know that. you will learn a lot.
no every art does not translate to the other. there is no shortage of people that can draw but cant paint and the opposite. your making the argument that everything is the same. relating painting and drawing. to 2d and 3d animation is a false comparison. painting and drawings are done by hand. 2d is done by hand. with 3d animation the computer does most of the work. if 3d animation had the amount of work, 2d has in it. 90% of the people currently doing 3d animation would not go anywhere near it.
and that is where the problem lies. just about everyone is only doing it because they can set 2 keys and have the computer fill in the rest. that is not animation that is the computer doing math. and that is exactly what it looks like to the human eye. a computer doing math.
now take 2d you have 30 drawings to make a motion. thats 30 different people with life in every drawing. now take 3d you have a single object that does not have life in it. even with morphs bone and muscle systems it can barely move.
the first thing I noticed when I learned 3d was the bone system is not good for animation. the bone system is there to simulate a human skeleton. that has nothing to do with animation. a character has to be able to take on any shape. but bone systems were designed not to allow that. there really just hinges connected together. and you think that, can compete with something that can completely change shape at any time.
something else 3d is up against. I draw a character preparing to punch someone then I do the follow thru of the punch. now I have to fill in the space in between. Im adding the motions, when I get to the middle image I decide. instead of doing another drawing that matches up. Im going to put a tornado there. and put a drawing that matches up after that.
this just went from being a punch. to a punch generating so much force your trying to take the persons head off. on a whim. in 3d modeling a tornado will take time. doing this as a particle system will take time. setting two keys and letting the computer fill in the rest. the whim never happens.
everytime you offload the work to the computer. you lose the human element. that is a constant in 2d animation. I said this before art is created when something is done by hand. the process used to make it. and the time that has to be put in to make it. all 3 are what creates the art. someone taking the time to hand make something beautiful. that can comes thru with 2d animation. with the cost of time and dedication. you cannot fake that with math. and be mindful of too much automation there is a point where the computer is doing so much of the work. that you actually cannot take credit for it
what you said about canvas that is just tracing kids in elementary can do that. no kids are thinking up ghost in the shell
I have done model after model but Its different. because I can draw the model with nurbs and spline modeling. you draw lines and make the models from those shapes. this was the orignal sculpting before sculpting programs. unlike polygons, the mesh that is created is loose. making it is fast and editing a loose substance is easy. so its really not difficult when done that way.
you also have blob modeling where you draw a stick figure and you make a full mesh from the stick figure. takes 5 minutes but the mesh is a polygon model not loose. but you can use a brush and make changes that way.
the landing for the flip
16 hours ago, tigral said:no every art does not translate to the other. there is no shortage of people that can draw but cant paint and the opposite.
Absolutely true although it's often because lack of practice and not understanding. I myself started animation to improve my 3D modeling and can guarantee that it did improve my topology. My drawing skill was basic until I learned how to make 3D models, now I draw concept art, paint oil paintings and do animations all because I learned 3D modeling.
I plan on taking some acting classes soon to improve my posing.
Doing one visual art learns you to look at shape and form, solid shapes as called in animation. This knowledge can be taken to any other visual art form and with it improve your skill in that art form. It doesn't mean that learning to draw will make you a painter, what it means is that learning how to draw will improve what paining skill you have.
16 hours ago, tigral said:and that is where the problem lies. just about everyone is only doing it because they can set 2 keys and have the computer fill in the rest.
This was a common problem even back in the old days. In the Illusion of life it is mentioned how the artist would often get lazy and do the animation to far apart.
This isn't something to be blamed on modern tools, this is just a artist being lazy. Mass effect andromeda suffered because of this exact mistake, Yet The Witcher 3 has some of the most realistic and best looking animations ever seen; because there animators used the tools as it was meant to be used.
16 hours ago, tigral said:now take 3d you have a single object that does not have life in it.
If you mean that life spark you get in drawing where it almost looks like things are moving even when still, there are many ways to do that effect in 3D. We just don't because uncanny valley effect. Instead in 3D all parts must have some kind of small movement at all times even when in rest. Because in real live everything living breaths, so in 3D that has to be emulated.
The other problem is that animations for 3D games need to look good from all sides at all times. You can't re-draw everything from every angle for every frame. Having things shake like that when moving would actually cause motion sickness.
16 hours ago, tigral said:a character has to be able to take on any shape. but bone systems were designed not to allow that.
Or maybe you just didn't learn everything about bones yet.
These are some of the most basic rigging tools. As you can see there is no limit to what shapes and form can be achieved once you use them. If you combined them with drivers there really is no limit.
Face animation is done using morph targets, just one more way not to get static looking animations.
16 hours ago, tigral said:this just went from being a punch. to a punch generating so much force your trying to take the persons head off. on a whim. in 3d modeling a tornado will take time. doing this as a particle system will take time.
Drawing also takes time and I can model a tornado in seconds, in fact drawing one would take me longer.
To achieve the effect you would then go for a frame by frame animation. In a game you would swap the model for the other during that frame. This can be done easily in both 3D animations and 3D games and was done many times with toon games for spinning attacks. Crash bandicoot was the first popular game to use alpha over and brought a stop to the mesh swapping.
16 hours ago, tigral said:everytime you offload the work to the computer. you lose the human element.
That is why we made animation curves. They allow back the human element that the generation removes. Computers create noise it's the artist that turns it into meaning.
16 hours ago, tigral said:I have done model after model but Its different. because I can draw the model with nurbs and spline modeling.
Yes this is the current rig I have setup, programmed it myself was lots more fun than doing the animation.
16 hours ago, tigral said:this was the orignal sculpting before sculpting programs.
No the original sculpting was making a high poly mesh and then using a center point to move things mathematically starting from the center point. Sculpting tools at this point only moved vertices around, it didn't add anything to the mesh.
It was only around 1997-1998 real time mesh generation became stable. That was when the first sculpting tools that added triangles to a existing mesh started. In 1999 Zbrush was released using it's voxels.
I would know I was there, I remember thinking that it would change 3D modeling forever and I remember the frustration when I realized it doesn't work like normal modeling when I first attempted it.
You do realize even now computers don't like changing the buffer of a mesh at real time. Saying that that was how the first sculpting tools worked when special kinds of 3d models types(think of Editable Mesh Surface still used by long lasting 3D software) where needed to just edit a mesh in real time, is like saying that air planes where here before cars.
16 hours ago, tigral said:takes 5 minutes but the mesh is a polygon model not loose.
Yea, tried that; too slow. My method is working, slow but working. Drawing curves and converting them to meshes is slower than just modeling once and animating.
This topic is closed to new replies.
Advertisement
Popular Topics
Advertisement
