Designing interesting Quests

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16 comments, last by Michael De Kock 5 years, 11 months ago
48 minutes ago, RPTD said:

That's interesting. Why you call it "academic"? I'm seen different games where I'm convinced they do it this way. I'm also venturing down the same road where the story comes first and the locations required for it to play out are put in place as needed.

True, some real games, such as Bethesda's, create a story first and then modify the world to support it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Bethesda's goal is to drive players to unexplored areas. Placing a quest there that has context to their character is a great solution. But the academic projects I examined, like Jonathon Doran and Ian Parberry's, and Young-Soel Lee's, model it in a little more depth. Then again they didn't need to fit it into a AAA game running at 60+ fps.

I like the idea of consequences in an open world. So in my implementation quests rise organically out of the current world state. (Starbound is another good example of this approach.) I think this shifts the focus more toward player-generated stories versus imposing a story on the player. If the player introduces rabbits to a new land, he might come back later and receive a quest to exterminate some rabbits that have overpopulated the land and are crowding out native fauna. Compare this to a generator that first creates a quest to exterminate rabbits, and then spawns a bunch of rabbits. In this case, there isn't as much player-driven cause-and-effect. But I will admit that the drawback is that it takes more work to annotate world objects with interesting things that can be done to them, and to annotate NPCs with a motivation system that lets them recognize what objects they want the player to manipulate and why. Without sufficient annotation, quests can feel drier than your story-first approach.

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2 hours ago, Tony Li said:

True, some real games, such as Bethesda's, create a story first and then modify the world to support it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Bethesda's goal is to drive players to unexplored areas. Placing a quest there that has context to their character is a great solution. But the academic projects I examined, like Jonathon Doran and Ian Parberry's, and Young-Soel Lee's, model it in a little more depth. Then again they didn't need to fit it into a AAA game running at 60+ fps.

I like the idea of consequences in an open world. So in my implementation quests rise organically out of the current world state. (Starbound is another good example of this approach.) I think this shifts the focus more toward player-generated stories versus imposing a story on the player. If the player introduces rabbits to a new land, he might come back later and receive a quest to exterminate some rabbits that have overpopulated the land and are crowding out native fauna. Compare this to a generator that first creates a quest to exterminate rabbits, and then spawns a bunch of rabbits. In this case, there isn't as much player-driven cause-and-effect. But I will admit that the drawback is that it takes more work to annotate world objects with interesting things that can be done to them, and to annotate NPCs with a motivation system that lets them recognize what objects they want the player to manipulate and why. Without sufficient annotation, quests can feel drier than your story-first approach.

I always felt Bethesda quests to be very boring and repetitive though especially since they pulled a random dungeon from a list (no matter if visited or not) and plunged the "go kill this to get me that item because I'm too lazy to do it myself" in it. In the end this all felt out of place in the sense of "why is this thing 'there' in the first place? makes no sense".

I think what you mentioned with the actors reacting to changes in the environment instead of generate unrelated quests is the better approach. In the end this is the approach I'm actually venturing to. And you are right, it needs a more elaborate AI system to do. But where would be the challenge in boring simple systems, right? ;)

Life's like a Hydra... cut off one problem just to have two more popping out.
Leader and Coder: Project Epsylon | Drag[en]gine Game Engine

Agree, I ever felt that it was not a good idea to explore every dungeon in the game of Skyrim/Oblivion just to get an NPC that a few hours later want me to go in and fetch something for it. All enemies dead but the one "Ring of Ultimate Whatever" has spawned there so again walk through feeled 100 floors just to find the ring in a chest I looted just an hour or too ago? Yeah, thanks but no!

What I'm twiddling arround at the moment is an approach where there are auto generated quests as same as human written story snippets that are just that generic so that the content generator could assemble it too. Anything, any NPC in the world should have a background story why he/she is there at the moment a player discovers it. Partially auto generated but also as some kind of principle of cause and effect. Based on that background-story (without going too deep into technical details) quest will be spreaded arround the world to make them "more plausible" to play.

I personally like the Bathesda games for there "talk randomly to someone that tells you something you might find interesting enougth to get a quest for" principle. Regardless of if it is reading a book and gather some knowledge about some palce anywhere in the world or find people that need help with something because one heared from another one that there is someone that knows someone to need help :D

I personally also dislike the typical "you have no choice because you are just the hero and go get the situation fixed that a mass of people has broken for the past 10 years" scenario. Especially in (bad designed) multiplayer/online games where each player is something special and the ultimate hero the citizens have waited for a century or two. What is the motivation for playing such kind of game? Sometimes it the story but mostly I feel it is just to explore the world.

I can't immagine that WoW players play the game for the background story rather than exploring and raiding dungeons to beat down there bosses.

So what I'm finally destinated to with this topic (and technology) is not making the story in a complex main quest but anything arround it so one might or might not tell his/her story and the content generator fills the world with anything else or quit on a main story but still provide a living world with all these interesting things to explore.

I also like the idea that quests should react on the world and not vice versa, what would (I think) make them more plausible than the other way round

I personally never liked this concept of "you are the hero we waited for ages". It results in NPCs loitering around (or just standing around) waiting for the player to blow them in the face to tell him he's the one and only they waited for. It's the main reason such game worlds feel artificial and not credible at all (Bethesda suffers a lot from this).

Unfortunately it's not so easy to get away from this concept without getting a DM involved.

One of the main problems I see is (as you mentioned in the beginning) the types of quests. Kill/Fetch quests all around the place are hardly helping in this situation. Coming up with quests which require more creative way of using your abilities would help. For example think of what could you do with your weapon else than just smacking goblins. Can you craft a situation where your ability helps solve a problem that does not first and foremost require killing something? This produces unexpected moments breaking the monotony.

Life's like a Hydra... cut off one problem just to have two more popping out.
Leader and Coder: Project Epsylon | Drag[en]gine Game Engine

I like Bathesda games but only those that offer a huge world where you could just explore and meet people so you have a total ingame play time of 10 hours before going to do the first main quest ;)

But in the other points you are completely right and thats why I wrote somewhere earlier that it is more fun if an NPC just wants X of Y but the game dosent tell the player where/how Y is to obtain instead of pointing to a 2x2 meter area on the map spawning every 5 seconds an evil NPC that drops Y. It will still be a collect X of Y quest but with a little gathering background for information that could themselfs be obtained from other NPCs, books or experience of other players.

I also would always work with consequences. Killing an NPC prevents you and/or other players from finishing there quests. NPCs never respawn and as long as this isn't a main story required one, it wont have any impact on the game itself but will punish players if there is later a quest that has an option to be solved more easy by just talking to that NPC.

I think a game can sometimes be but shouldn't only be a place to just slaught anything that moves because 'we can do it'. I don't say that I never took my sword and simply slashed a guard or shot an NPC down but this shouldn't be a general approach to go (except for a relaxing turn Unreal Tournament :D )

 

So by the way, if anyone is interested in this discussion, I could still need some help writing and designing the core game mechanics and content creation rules! Just PM, Skype or Discord me ;)

A few ideas could be:

  • Travel to location X
  • Interact with  X
  • Do not get noticed by X, but defeat Y and travel to Z

Quests are in an interesting part of Game Design. Whilst there is a variety of different styles of game play, they typically fall into several  categories. Arguably, the best quest design incorporate the mechanics of the game and have several layers of depth. For an example, let's look at Pokemon. The main quest is to catch defeat the Pokemon league, which is the primary goal. The secondary goal which is completed on the way is to collect every Pokemon and train them. To do this the player must take advantage of their knowledge of the game's mechanics and exploit them in such a way to progress their journey. This quest subsequently journeys the player through a story.

There is no real answer to the best quest design, and to generate them whilst keeping them interesting would be difficult. I can however advise that to keep them refreshing is to incorporate the game's mechanics and keep side quests randomly generated, but the main story predetermined.

Kylan

On 04/09/2018 at 2:41 AM, Michael Aganier said:

Quest archetypes are not important. As long as the story is told with the Therefore/But principle, the quest will be good and interesting.

First, some story telling theory. What is a quest? A quest is a series of events. A series of events is also a story. Therefore, make a good story and your quest will be good. To make a good story, use the Therefore/But principle.

The Therefore/But principle is the rule that to tell a good story, each event of your story must be linked together by a Therefore or a But. In a good story, each event is the cause of the next event. If an event is the cause of the next, they will be linked together by a conjunction of causality like Therefore or But. If your events are linked by a conjunction of addition like And, this means there is no causality between the events.

For example, here is a simple quest process within a game: I talk to a homeless guy. He tells me to kill 2 goblins and collect some water. I find the goblins and I kill 2. And then I find the water source, and I collect some. And then I talk to the quest giver again. and I receive a sword. End of quest.

Now, if I take the same quest process, but I tell it with the Therefore/But principle: I talk to a homeless guy. He tells me he is very thirsty. Therefore, I think it should be a good idea to find him some water. Thefore, I go find a water source. But, 2 goblins guard the water source. Therfore, I kill them. Therefore, I can collect some water for the homeless guy. I give the water to the homeless guy. Therefore, he brings out a sword. He tells me he has no use for it, therefore, he gives it to me. End of quest.

Again, quest archetypes are not important. You can have any number of archetypes, if the story is told properly, the quest will be interesting.

Absolutely, WoW is a great example of this, massive story lines all integrated out of a bigger picture throught the expansions till now, and 90% of  quest has its own story behind a story to tell, always keeping that intruiging effect on players.

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