Let me preface this by saying I'm not a big fan of forced diversity either. Forced diversity usually leads to poorly written characters and poor representation, and a lot of stereotyping. And for some minority groups that poor representation is so much worse than no representation.
Alright, let's get into this.
4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:
Well, at least you see the weakness of your whole ideology... or at least the ideology you seem to champion.
I came in here to defend my desire for more women in games and to defend my non-white friends. Nothing more. If you're expecting another "outrage warrior" you're not going to find one.
4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:
Not every game has to be for everyone?
I agree wholeheartedly.
The problem I have, as a woman, is that most games of my favorite genre are only targeted at men. And this drives me nuts because to developers, I don't exist. My sales don't count, my opinion doesn't matter.
Imagine if your favorite genre of games was only filled with pink girly themes, fashion and makeup, and other stereo typically (and even possibly harmful) "femininity" that you have no experience in? How far do you think you can relate to characters in that setting? You can't tell me you wouldn't want a few more games featuring more typically "male" themes.
I'm not saying lets make all shooters super girly (though one would be pretty freaking awesome). I just want to see characters who aren't oozing with masculinity and who have motivations outside of some sense of pride that I can't relate to, which is excruciatingly common.
4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:
One thing you might want to understand is this: when you say "we are asking to get characters we can associate with"... you do say "I cannot associate with a person that is not my color of skin". You do understand how that sounds to someone else, do you? I know that this is not what you, and probably many on your side of the spectrum mean, but for someone who actual doesn't care about the skin color of other people (thanks to living in a country lacking any history that would breed that kind of thinking), this sounds pretty offputting.
Ok, not the best choice of words, I'll admit. What I meant there was the same as above, though. I've said it before but I have no problem relating to male characters, I care about their motivations, I care that they "get the girl", etc.
But men are different than me. They interact with each other differently, they have different experiences, problems, viewpoints and priorities. People of different races, genders and nationalities all have different perspectives and react to situations in different ways, they see the world differently. You yourself confirm that repeatedly by stating you're from Europe and how race issues are very different for you.
4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:
I don't care if some dev creates a game full of black people... why do you care if its a game full of white people?
When all games and movies are filled to the brim with white male protagonists, I only ever get to experience one particular narrow viewpoint of the world, and it gets stale. Very stale. But that's not the real issue.
The real issue is: what about the rest of us? Why are men so important that they get to have all of the spotlight and representation? Why are they prioritized? Why is there so much backlash when a woman plays the lead in a new Star Wars movie instead of a man? Why can't she be there? Is she not deserving of it?
And that's where it comes full circle and lands in sexism/racism town. In isolation having white characters is absolutely fine, having entire casts of white people would be fine. But in the larger social context, especially in NA, this kind of thing reinforces a long-standing idea that white men are more important. If you look at American history 50+ years ago you can easily see that idea being pushed hard everywhere, from advertisements to laws, even propaganda.
In the end though, it's just nice to have characters that are more like me so that others can relate to me for once.
4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:
If I would have to say where I stand as an european... I am a bystander, just looking at the whole mess and trying to decide who to root for.
One side that you keep referring to, which you frequently over estimate, is a bunch of angry teenagers and young adults who are not happy with how unfair the world is and are trying, albeit poorly in many cases, to improve that and to help others. Or, you know, complain about it on Tumblr or Twitter because they aren't equipped to be good advocates. They're naive and inexperienced but ultimately harmless, and will eventually grow out of it. The rest are people who form small communities or support organizations to try and help people who are discriminated against.
The other side is a bunch of rich white men and political figureheads who control a huge portion of government and power, who actively try to control the bodies of women and restrict their rights to their own bodies. Who push for "religious freedom" at the expense of LGBTQ+ people, whom they'd love to send into conversion camps that teach them self-hate and push them towards suicide in the name of "god". Who gerrymander regions to restrict the voting ability of racial minorities and who started a "War on Drugs" solely for the purpose of criminalizing those same minorities. Who mass deport people based on racial profiling and frequently deport actual citizens as a result, and even hold people in ICE custody until they die, all the while trying to make themselves richer at the same time.
Do not assume that these are equal forces.
4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:
If you have seen any controversy around the release of HZD that was involving Political correctness and diversity, please provide me a link. I certainly was eagerly awaiting the game, thus have read a lot about it around its release. Maybe I missed something still.
Typically "progressives" complain when the representation is bad or harmful, which is usually when it reinforces existing stereotypes or negative opinions of particular groups of marginalized people.
Which Horizon did, albeit personally I thought what they did was pretty minor, but here was controversy around it.
2 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:
Well, in the current climate in the gaming sphere I expect rather the white only game to be back there... but really, it doesn't matter now who gets the shorter stick in this scenario now, no?
It's somewhat telling that you'd think white people should be at the back, do you really think white people are being marginalized somehow?
7 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:
Now maybe return the favour to the guys that have different sensibilities, and let them have their own echo chamber were they can consume the media they like without being assaulted by progressive propaganda.
Being fair to others is not progressive propaganda, it's asking for basic human decency. What do you want, let all the angry boys who don't like girls in their safe space sit around and echo each other until they become Incels?
7 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:
Oh yeah, maybe just come over to europe and not stay within the far left echo chamber...
Oh wait, why is it ok for those guys to have their echo chamber but not the left? How is it fair that we need to step out and listen and be considerate but they get to exclude everyone and have their own little space to be exclusionary?
7 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:
Because for some people it might not be a feature, but unecessary padding? Or even a force feed assault of RL BS they want to escape from in their games?
And for the others it's a feature. Are you saying you'll prioritize the people who thinks it's unnecessary? Because again if you favor the later then you're indirectly telling me that women and non-white people are not as important, that our desire for a feature is less important than your apathy. If it's unnecessary to you than why does it matter to you if we have extra options?
4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:
Asking for representation is all good and well. As far as I can tell it is working, and you get it.
DEMANDING it is the problem here.
This sounds like tone policing to me. How dare they speak up! The heathens!
4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:
I have no sympathy for toxic behaviour towards a game dev that just creates a game you seemingly don't like.
We agree, I don't condone any toxic behavior even if the cause is good. It's not a good way to approach situations.
That said there's a difference between loud protests or standing up for yourself, and toxicity. I hope you can tell the difference between the two and aren't painting with a single brush.
4 hours ago, Gian-Reto said:
I can understand why people would want to be able to create whatever they want as an avatar in a multiplayer game.
Great! I don't see the issue then, why exactly are you arguing here? Because the story might have a character that doesn't fit the history?
1 hour ago, deltaKshatriya said:
20 hours ago, Bob Marl said:
What if you go eat to the same burger house 5 times in a row and you eat the same burger (as analogy to the older BFs). The 6th time, you ask for a burger, but you get a salad (as the new BFs that are being changed). It's basically the same thing as saying "look fatty, you've been eating too much burgers, take a salad, it's good for your health". How the hell can't you see how moralizing is that?
That's a terrible analogy. For one, every Battlefield game has never been identical to its predecessor. Your claim is demonstrably false. Each game has been different and brought tons of changes. Secondly, how is the change of adding multiplayer skins so drastic that you are going from a burger to a salad? How is this such a drastic change? How has your gaming experience changed so drastically as opposed to the many major gameplay changes made over the years? Moreover, where are devs moralizing about it? In your 'analogy' the guy is saying "yo you're too fat, eat a salad, it's good for you", show me where the devs are acting that way? How is the mere act of adding a multiplayer skin customization option moralizing? Do these skins have political slogans on them that I missed? @Hodgman sounds pretty spot on in that it sounds more like y'all are pushing an agenda onto something that has no agenda.
Moreover, asking for a burger, a predefined item on a menu, is radically different from the game industry. You don't really 'ask' for a game. Devs make a game, they put it on the market, and you choose to buy or not. If enough people like it, then devs make money. It's an entirely different dynamic.
The analogy would have worked better as a burger that came with optional extra toppings, since the original burger is left unchanged unless you want those extra toppings.
Basically they're complaining because other people get to have extra toppings if they want to. It's selfishness. It's people being upset that there are girls in their boys only club.
