Unity dropping Monodevelop a let down for small indie?

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44 comments, last by mr_tawan 5 years, 9 months ago
48 minutes ago, d000hg said:

What a shame, all these game developers get to use, for free, a professional, world-class software development toolkit. Why the hell would any self-respecting developer NOT be using VS as a matter of course? Or is there a big community of Mac/Linux Unity developers (what DO they use?)

I also don't get all the Anti-IDE hate. I see it in "the younger generation" regardless of gamedev or regular dev job. It's become very fashionable to minimise your tool chain. I don't get it, I feel old ? ... I'm always confused when I see my teammates using text editors to code. But this is definitely a growing trend.

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1 hour ago, SillyCow said:

I also don't get all the Anti-IDE hate. I see it in "the younger generation" regardless of gamedev or regular dev job. It's become very fashionable to minimise your tool chain. I don't get it, I feel old ? ... I'm always confused when I see my teammates using text editors to code. But this is definitely a growing trend.

I haven't seen the "text-editor-only" mindset much in the professional world, but "lifestyle minimalism" in general is definitely in fashion these days, especially among the young programmers living in the big cities where everything is expensive. Many millennials are worried that they won't be able to retire at all given the costs of living and stagnant wages these days. The common advice to address those fears is "don't buy things you don't need and if you can do without something, do without it." I guess when you get into that mindset you start applying that to everything regardless of whether it's a good idea or not.

That aside, I do actually know someone who uses vim professionally, but it's not for the sake of lifestyle minimalism. When I asked him why, his response was "when I was younger, I had to switch IDEs with every project. I eventually just learned vim so that I wouldn't have to learn a new IDE with each project and my workflow would be consistent, meaning I could be a lot more productive." He still uses VS for debugging, though. :D

When I was in school, I used vim was because I was working on the lab machines, most of which ran Linux or Solaris, meaning there wasn't any Visual Studio available. In addition to that, not all the machines had the same distribution, so I couldn't count on any one particular tool being there - apart from gcc and vim. I occasionally switch back to vim for the sake of nostalgia and because I've found living without intellisense forces me to design APIs that are easier to remember and use.

I wouldn't say "don't use an IDE" is in any way a modern trend. People of a certain type used to look down on IDEs back in the days when there was a wide range of IDEs (Borland, Blocks, VC++, etc) 20 years back. The reasons might have changed but it just seems even sillier when IDEs are SO good these days (they used to be pretty painful).

21 minutes ago, d000hg said:

I wouldn't say "don't use an IDE" is in any way a modern trend. People of a certain type used to look down on IDEs back in the days when there was a wide range of IDEs (Borland, Blocks, VC++, etc) 20 years back. The reasons might have changed but it just seems even sillier when IDEs are SO good these days (they used to be pretty painful).

As far as I'm concerned VC++ has always been good.  I remember going from vi, make files, line debuggers to VC++ and it seemed like a giant leap forward.  Of course there were unix snobs who at first refused to use it but the vast majority came around pretty quickly.

19 minutes ago, Gnollrunner said:

As far as I'm concerned VC++ has always been good.  I remember going from vi, make files, line debuggers to VC++ and it seemed like a giant leap forward.  Of course there were unix snobs who at first refused to use it but the vast majority came around pretty quickly.

I guess it's always been good, but it's a lot better now. Intellisense used to be pretty erratic (deleting the database all the time was needed), standards compliance was terrible in v6, C++ refactoring/intellisense tools were never that good (though ReSharper was wonderful).

I've been using MS since MSVC5 (visual C not visual c++) but that was just a compiler IIRC and you did write code as plain text.

4 minutes ago, d000hg said:

I guess it's always been good, but it's a lot better now.

True but you have to compare it to what else was around at the time.

9 hours ago, d000hg said:

What a shame, all these game developers get to use, for free, a professional, world-class software development toolkit. Why the hell would any self-respecting developer NOT be using VS as a matter of course? Or is there a big community of Mac/Linux Unity developers (what DO they use?)

Unity with Visual Studio on Mac works great!  When VS and Unity started playing nice in the sandbox, I moved to VS immediately.  I'll have to admit that I am used to using VS (have been since VS6) and other IDEs.  I prefer to use a professional grade IDE over any other setup (e.g. make, vim, cc, etc... ~ all of which I have done plenty of times on multiple platforms). 

I'm also confused as to opinion of 1.5GB being "heavy".  It doesn't feel too heavy by today's standards.  Xcode is over 5GB.  Android Studio is 0.5GB, but with the SDK/tools it's 2GB.

As a note, Unity released a preview for a VS Code debugger extension with the latest release (2018.2).

 

Regarding IDEs... eh, it's a personal preference. Use whatever you're most productive in.

There is no doubt in my mind that some people are more productive in vim/emacs/whatever. Personally, I don't feel it's worth the time investment for me, but if it works for someone else, great.

The problem is when a developer refuses to adapt their toolchain to work with the rest of the team. If you're on a project that's using Visual Studio, feel free to edit in vi, but don't insist that the build system supports makefiles. Ditto vice versa. At the very least, you should be comfortable using the tools that the other team members are using.

if you think programming is like sex, you probably haven't done much of either.-------------- - capn_midnight
19 hours ago, Gnollrunner said:

True but you have to compare it to what else was around at the time.

I think back then Borland's product was pretty good, in fact many claimed it was better. And Code::Blocks used to be pretty widely used. I'm sure there was another one - and then you could swap in a different C/C++ compiler, there used to be adverts for them in magazines until MS made their compiler incredibly good. These days there really isn't much realistic opposition to VS that I'm aware of. Though XCode seems like it would be really good IF I put the time into learning it.

16 hours ago, Arctous said:

Unity with Visual Studio on Mac works great!  

 

How does it work exactly? You develop on PC and copy to Mac? Or is there a VS for Mac I'm not aware of?

Tangent, but does Unity hide all the XCode app-packaging or do you still have to fire up XCode for all that?

5 hours ago, d000hg said:

How does it work exactly? You develop on PC and copy to Mac? Or is there a VS for Mac I'm not aware of?

The Mac is a fully functioning stand-alone development system.  I use Unity3D and VisualStudio-for-Mac (formerly Xamarin) for design/development/debug/test.  It's my entire development environment (including creating IPA and APK/OBB files).  Git keeps everything flowing between team member's different development environments. 

 

5 hours ago, d000hg said:

Tangent, but does Unity hide all the XCode app-packaging or do you still have to fire up XCode for all that?

No.  As you probably know, Unity3D creates a fully signed, ready-to-go APK/OBB files for Android.  For iOS, however, Unity3D creates a fully hydrated Xcode project as the output for Apple.  You then have to launch Xcode to build and package the app.  Initially, I was disappointed in this workflow, partially because it was an extra step versus Android (yes, I'm lazy...) but mainly I was unhappy about the Apple's workflow, in general.  Apple was: Unity->Xcode->IPA_Stuff->AppStore_Upload versus Android Unity->APK/OBB->GooglePlay_Upload.  However, since Apple has improved the Xcode workflow over the last couple of years it's much better.  I can use Xcode to manage the IPA and sign/verify/upload it to the AppStore, as well.  So, it's the same amount of steps.

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