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Paladin

Next generation games

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Hmm, first person fighting in an outer space scenario. That''d be interesting. If you could get enough people together at the same time that is. The comander would have to learn the strengths and weaknesses of his people and decide who should lead/follow/hold back. He could draw up a battle plan and share with his people. The only knowledge he''d have before hand is the layout of the other ship, and his knowledge of how good his people are. (As well as the enemy if he''s faught them before)
There could also be a "holo-deck" on the ship where you can train and practice with fake injuries.

That would actualy be pretty cool. It''d take a lot of cooperation between a lot of people and a lot of 2 hour meetings online.

E:cb woof!

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About the VR glasses.. They are never going to be good enough for the public because they give headache. But I''ve heard about technology that can display an image right in your eyes so that there is no monitor and no glasses. Just direct laser beams in your eyes.

And smelling games wouldn''t be that good actually, think of what you usually smell in real world: nothing. Maybe in quake you could smell dead corpses but I wouldn''t like that

Maybe the most important realistic step after voice control and laser image would be hand movement. I want to use my hands in a game to grab stuff and hold a weapon. "Data-gloves" have been reality for some years but no-one has started to sell them cheaply to mass market. Why, nobody knows..

As for design, Internet games aren''t going to be the whole future (even though the bandwitch gets to 100 terabytes/second and latency is microseconds). Online RPG''s don''t suite well for good plots. If you are just thrown in to a huge internet world where you can do anything, what will you actually do? Slay monsters and buy better weapons. Good game should be done so that plot (dynamic of course) gives the player always something clever to do. Players don''t really know what they should do, so they must be guided. For example, Half-life''s plot gives player always something to look at and to think about, so that the player doesn''t have to fiqure out himself what he should do.

As for the very first question: simulators can''t get any better without more senses involved (wind in your hair, 3d vision, even smell). Simulators are just already as good as they can be.

RTS games need something very orginal, maybe a global huge network playing arena, where you could have your own country to maintain. And you could hire guys for your side to maintain the system so you wouldn''t have to do everything on your own.

RPG games are going to evolve a lot. Dynamic plot that leads the way for player, billions of characters with their own backgrounds, a huge interactive world where everything is possible... As said before here, static plots totally suck.


-Hans

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- I know I''m new around here, but it sounds like many are wishing for a better forest and I have a question about a couple trees. For anyone with an opinion:
- I keep seeing "If we only had better graphics, , ," and "if we only had good VR glasses, , ,". How, exactly, would better graphics make any game experience more entertaining? What function do the graphics serve? Would Pong have been any better if it had been available in 32 bit graphics? Is there anything that you want to show on screen that there''s absolutely no way that you can do now? I like to look at pretty pictures too, but pretty pictures alone do not make for a satisfying game experience. They enhance a good idea, but won''t float a lamer for very long. Yes it''s true, someday we''ll be ray-tracing Riven worlds in real time but when that day comes, people will expect it as the norm and they''ll be bored with that, too.
- I also keep seeing references to multiplayer: hundreds, thousands, maybe millions of online players, participating at once. What exactly it the purpose of this? I have seen (other places) complaints that "so-and-so game engine only allows 16 multiplayers, not 32" or of coming engines that will allow dozens of players at once, but what does having 32 players bring to the experience above 16? Or 64 above 32?
--- What if we made a chess board of 500 x 500 squares, and tried to play a game? Likely due to problems of sheer management, most of both sides'' pieces would be quickly lost until only a small number remained close to each other, playing the same old strategies. That you had a huge number of starting pieces and a huge board to move around on wouldn''t end up mattering much, really. It would still end up the same old (small) game. - Lubb

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In answer to I-Shaolin''s first reply here,
when you say things are too linear with the point A to point B stuff - I don''t disagree, but if that is not the case people usually seem to complain about not knowing where the heck they are supposed to be going, or what they should be doing.
Put this down to bad design if you will, but it can be difficult to acheive a balance where the player is being manipulated into doing things a certain way, but they do not realise that the manipulation is there.
I hope I explained that well


Take it easy,

-Mezz

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Sorry, I haven''t read this whole thread yet, but I wanna say my idea. My Idea s a cutsey platformer game. ACK, don''t hurt me! Its more than that. It''ll be a detective game. A group of little Cristmas Lights have to solve a huge mystery in each game, with clues and all. This way, you can plop the player in your game and say "Find some clues, solve da mystery" instead of saying "beat the final boss". Heehee. The game would also be funny. I have idea''s for a 2D game called "The Case Of The Permenent Sticky." Someday, when I am able to, (IE: Have enough experience), Ill make it. Heehee, bye!

--BugSquash
Taeloid!

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Guest Anonymous Poster
This one regarding the V-R glasses etc... Anyone heard about this new-tech(don''t have link ) where they actually paint the screen on your retina with a laser. They been using this with the military but a company is developing a cusumer level product. For my understanding you basiclly wear a laser-headset, the headset will shoot a laser INTO your eyes and project a screen onto your eyes. I think this would be really cool, it could change the current situation with the VR glasses. What do you guys think?

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Hahaa !!! We won''t hurt you ;D
You have IDEA, that is not clone of something that is just burger stuff that markets are full. Remember that this kind of ideas usually make best reviews ... but thanks to poor audience, don''t sell well

Anyway, I think that platform games should make come back, let me explain:

My basis about next-generation games lay under HARDCORE ENGINE, that is next-gen in meaning of word... well, kind of:
As I told before about future of 3D-games, I was explaining that some company should create standard engine, which can be expanded, and will become this virtual-world, because people simply don''t have time to program every damn physics of grass again and again.

Same with 2D games ! Honestly, have you people played any of these games:

Auts
V-wing (best!)
Turboraketti / Turborocket
Sub... what is that net only game ? Sub something...

This are just examples: Think about this games, all are games where players simply have asteroids-style controls, bitmap worlds, and deathmatch... DAMN FUN ENTERTAIMENT :D
But we are missing something, and that is "deep" system. All these games are using own engine and system, but are just clones against each other. If I would create new clone for this games, I would simply license from one of the creators, and expand this old 2D-world to new more complicated system. Throw stuff like:

Support to 3D-cards (for better graphics)
Capture The Flag Mode
Ground Vehicles with hovercraft equipment (only short flying) and so on and so on.

This is the way how we can create more complicated worlds. Ofcourse I could create all own engine and game, but what''s the point ? Again new clone without anything new, because I got bored to create lots of new things after I programmed new engine allmost one year !

This is what I believed that happend to Quake III; it became more just new engine, than new game. Lets see Unreal Tournament in other hand: Just couple of new features for graphics (old engine was cool already , way better network code, and ... WOU ! "We have lot''s of empty time to create new stuff !" , and after adding modes like Assault, Domination, and MOD''s, game beats Quake III in my opinion, because it''s more comprehensive and deeper experience, than new engine with old deathmatch.

This is exactly what I meant with using standard engines. Think about sequel of Quake III, IF it''s done with Quake III engine, with new graphic libraryes and lot''s of new cool features, NOT NEW BASE ENGINE !

Hmm... I think "that''s all folks"... For this time
I''m REALLY glad that you people have been giving your visions about next-generation of gaming, and I''m waiting for more opinions

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Ouh, and reply for last post:

I think that this new technology is going to be cool
Also I''m waiting for new headset, that use electronics to give shocks on your ears, that cause you to feel that you are rolling around, so it''s actually making your inner ear feel what you see in the game. Sounds REALLY COOL !
I checked this company''s homepage, and it really looks & sounds cool, because then you could "feel" like being in the game... and don''t worry, those shocks are not 10000 volts ;D

I think that someone posted link for this page at beginning of this discussion.

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Paladin, are you from Finland, too?-)
Just thought so because you knew those cave-fliers so well... I am actually making a one myself Any good ideas for a 2d cave-flier game?

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Yap, I''m from Finland !

Right now I''m an exhange-student at USA, Midland, Michigan. I just finished my Highschool at Finland.

Hmm... Ideas for cave-fighters:

Make engine up as fast as you can, and spend rest of the time with new ideas, not with new technology !

Make resolution to be 320x200 - 640x480, atleast. Use Direct-X (even after I have never used it, I know that it''s "the only way to fly"
Add new ideas ! Create level-editor, which lets player to load bitmap files, and lay those to create parallax backgrounds. One problem with old 256 color -level creating system is that the person who is creating levels, CANNOT create transparent earth easily. Also forget the old system, which is that color 45 is "base" color, which causes repair, it''s history ! Add this base and so on features on level editor.
Maybe try adding 4 wheel truck which can hover only a while in the air, and uses magnets to stay on the ground (so it can actually be upside down from ceiling !).
Hmm... Add tournament mode, with additional features like: worst player is dropped from next level and so on.
Add computer players (this is MUST !)
Add capture the flag mode
Add new guns that other games didn''t add, like forcefield bomb and so on.
Multiplayer also is must for this kind of game !

and PLEASE: Play V-wing ! It''s absolutely the best cave-fighter game, even after it''s little old. It has the best physics that I ever saw in any cave fighter. Also it has really nice computer players, mod-music player, win95 support (hey ! it''s originally dos-code, and works still on windowed mode !), and it has REALLY cool weapons

This are just couple of ideas. I really mean that you CANNOT create new king of cave fighters by adding one or two new ideas, you have create the MOST DEEPEST cave fighter to get audience to play it. Play games like Unreal Tournament and other cave fighters, and copy the best ideas, and add MUCH new ones.

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(it feels silly to write english to a finnish person.. and we are talking about cave-fliers that only finnish people know )

Yeah forgot to tell I have already made my game for over a year so it''s quite complete now =). Yes, it manages the docking problem well, it has computer players and high resolutions with direct-x.

But the idea of differently behaving vehicles is great! Ufo''s (that don''t actually turn but only fly directly in the direction you make them to go), cars and hovercrafts add really much depth to a genre like this. So everybody don''t have that typical AUTS-ship to fly with.

CTF maybe needs too much players. But I''m planning to make an internet mode also.

Well, I''ll just get back playing V-wing

-Hans

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(it feels silly to write english to a finnish person.. and we are talking about cave-fliers that only finnish people know )

Yeah forgot to tell I have already made my game for over a year so it''s quite complete now =). Yes, it manages the docking problem well, it has computer players and high resolutions with direct-x.

But the idea of differently behaving vehicles is great! Ufo''s (that don''t actually turn but only fly directly in the direction you make them to go), cars and hovercrafts add really much depth to a genre like this. So everybody don''t have that typical AUTS-ship to fly with.

CTF maybe needs too much players. But I''m planning to make an internet mode also.

Well, I''ll just get back playing V-wing

-Hans

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I''m not from Finland, so you''ll have to excuse my ignorance, but is there a place where I could download a demo of this V-wing game? It sounds interesting.

-Dave

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You can find V-wing probably from
www.finnishgames.com
If you can''t find V-wing, try Wings (good playability), Tappo2 (good gfx) and Rocket Chase (some peoples favourite). They all can be found from the finnishgames server (witch seemed to be down today).

Cave-fliers don''t have very good graphics in general, but they have killer playability. And they are usually played with two or more people on same keyboard, although some of them have computer players also. Well, see for yourself =)

-Hans

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TERRIBLE MISTAKE !!! V-wing is not as good as WINGS ;DDD
I was talking about wings all the time, when I actually wrote about V-wing

I''m BIG Wings fan ! That game just rocks so hard ;D
I was involved in creating levels for wings, and my friend was too (Ossi Ojutkangas, you might find he''s "hellish" levels in wings, and probaply some electronic fields too)

Hmm... it has been quite a while since I played cave fighter last time ;D

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True, Wings is better (that''s what I''ve played the most also.. OK the most after AUTS and my own game...) but V-wing had more orginal ideas.

Paladin, I read a bit about your "Dust"-project from your homepages. Why don''t you tell some more about this game so we here could give you ideas?

-Hans

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Just a thought.
It''s not only technology that allows a player to immerse him/herself into a game, it''s the story, the plot, the characters, the envioronment. You think the original three Star Wars (stretching it a bit with Jedi) would have been as succesful if it were only special effects, and no story (as cheesy as it might have been.) There are still very low-tech devices around giving people hours of enjoyment and inmersion, they''re called books.

Part of the future of gaming will include better (real?) writers working with designers. Hopefully...

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True games need more plot, but graphics are good as well. You can add more to the game if the engine is capable of handling more. If all computers still used EGA screens would Q3 be as much fun? And isn''t it nicer seeing a new video then an older one because the image is crisper. That''s why people like CDs so much, the sound is nicer then tapes.

I think once we get faster computers and better programs, games will have voice synthesizers that sound human. Your computer could talk to you and give you info on new monsters/areas/whatever that you encounter. With better AI you could tell the computer how to rig objects together to do something else. That would be expecialy interesting in strategy games like turn based space battles. (ie:"set the torpedo to detinate after 500km with a wide spread" or "put torpedo in a portable status field set to deactivate when a ship approaches within 1km")

I still like the point A to point B games. But I like trying to find where point B is. I see this in TombRaider. Often you need to back track in order to do things in the right order. It''d be nice if there was a little more plot inserted into the game itself instead of between scenes or at the start and end of the game. I''m not to sure how you could to this however.

E:cb woof!

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dog135: I think Q3A would be as enjoyable as it is now even with ega graphics. The action is that makes Quakes alive. And people use CD also because they''re cheaper than tapes and as easy to make/use.

Technology means nothing actually: I''m just playing Star Control 2 (with my pentium mmx) and because of it''s witty dialog and clever+dynamic plot, it is just as enjoyable as Half-Life.

Game makers design better engines because that''s what they can do and what they really like doing. Typical programmers really don''t care what kind of a plot game has, if the game can draw millon polys/sec with their new advanced technology that _they_ invented. That''s why every game group should have a talented organizer that thinks what the game is going to be, not just how fast his own code-line is or how good his own music piece sounds.

With a bunch of gfx, music and programming the game is going to be nothing. Just a clone: Doom. Arcanoid. Tetris. Command & Conquer.

-Hans

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Where I live (Seattle, WA) CDs are more expensive then tapes. You can get a CD for about $12-$15 but a tape for $7-$10. But the CDs still sell better here. People like the high quality. People also buy expensive monitors because they have more colors, sharper picture, and bigger screen area.

That''s why so many people buy color TVs instead of just buying a cheap black & white TV. The story''s the same on both TVs but people like things to look nice. That''s also why high definition TVs are selling so well, nice picture.

Besides, if you were to play Q3 on an ega screen, you wouldn''t be able to tell the bad guys apart from the walls. Not enough colors. Not to mention, everything would be red instead of brown. Most people don''t like that.

As far as processors go, if you were to try to play a good game on an old 386, it''d be so choppy, you''d die before you saw the guy. And it''s not just the high res. graphics that do that. There''s also a lot of AI involved that needs the faster processor.

E:cb woof!

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The point that I am trying to make is that there are games that you could put on a 386, that would still be challenging. What the game actually is, where the challenge lies, has not much to do with amazing graphics or a multitude of online players. There''s a lot of board and table games that could be programmed on a 386. Board games that have been around for decades, centuries even- and have changes precious little in appearance, because the way the game looks actually is relevant to how the game is played. Many new 3-D, multiplayer games come out each year and wind up in the bagain bins six months later. What does it mean when the average time to complete a game takes ~2 years, but the game is considered outdated in 6 months? To me, it seems that the game was basically a trend, and had little to offer in the way of continuing challenge or interest. - Lubb

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True, but what sells the game? When you go to the store and see a bunch of boxes on the shelf, what''s the first one you pick up? The one with the pretty pictures. Sure you could write the game to work on slower computers. I think they should at least have the option to switch to a faster, simpler engine, but they''ll always be trying to make their game the most visualy enticing.

I have that problem with TRIII, the engine they used generates realistic fire, swirls in the water when Lora walks through it, and even smoke out of her guns when she fires. Problem is, it slows down my 200Mhz computer. I do wish they had the option to use the same engine they had in TRII. It ran fine on my computer.

I think most game companies assume you are using a graphics accelerator card. I''m not into games enough to get one.

E:cb woof!

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I didn''t mean that technology or cool gfx would be bad. I meant they aren''t necessary for any game. Some machine power is needed for 3d of course, but from q1 -> q3 I can''t see anything that has developed. CD''s are cheaper in computer media: try putting Baldur''s Gate (3 gigabytes) in disks (1.4 megs).

And yes, gfx and hype sell many poor and dumb games. But I thought we were talking about good games here, not about well selling games..

TR3 could have also been designed to run on 486/66 and people would''ve liked it as much as they do now. Playstation shows well how different games and ideas you can make with just the one machine that doesn''t get any faster. But Playstation games still get better and better.

-Hans

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Actualy, we were talking about how 3D glasses would make a game funner to play. They''re not necesary to play the game, but it''s nice being able to see how far away a wall or enemy is. I have a Demo of the first TombRaider, and I like playing TRIII because it''s just nicer looking. Although I also like the story and levels better.

Anyways, back to the original topic, I think the area of games that could use the biggest boost would be the AI. I''ve never really seen any game that has really good AI.

E:cb woof!

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- What games have pretty good AI? I have heard Thief mentioned widely in this respect but I haven''t seen it myself. - Lubb

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