Failing Calculus and looking at other options.

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14 comments, last by slayemin 5 years, 1 month ago

I want to know if I should continue trying to soldier through my calculus class, or if I should look for other options.

I am working to get a bachelors degree in Computer Science. I am studying in the USA. However, some years ago I was diagnosed with a math disability.

I am currently taking Calculus 1, which I must pass with a C-grade to take Calculus 2. Both of these classes are required, and the Computer Science department doesn't allow students to design their own degrees.

I have previously passed my precalculus class with a C. It was probably the most difficult class I've completed so far. I had to prioritize studying it, and my grades in other classes suffered. 

I admit I don't like Calculus. Math has always been my least-favorite subject, and the one I am forced to spend the most time on. Currently I often work from 9:00 am to 8:00 pm, and most of this time is spent with Calculus. Even so, most of my work is graded F.

Even so, while my precalculus class was four-credits, my calculus 1 class is five-credits, and seems to take more than twice as much time as my precalculus class did. I will also have to take another two-credit calculus 2 class afterwards to complete the math portion of my major. I know my college isn't obliged to waive my calculus class, and I am looking at different options.

However, I love programming, and I don't want to transfer to another major. So, I want know what you guys think. I have already transferred colleges twice, so this is my third college. Assuming the dean of Computer Science (who has a PHD in Mathematics) doesn't let me replace my Calculus classes with other coursework, what should I do?

I don't mind working outside the game industry, but would I be unemployable without Calculus? How cheap and reputable are degrees from online colleges? Could I ascertain whether they'd waive any otherwise-required calculus course beforehand? What could I do that would improve the chances of the Dean of Computer Science allowing me to switch the courses for other ones?

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What you should do is try your hardest.And talk to your advisor and your professor. 

-- Tom Sloper -- sloperama.com

Okay. Ten years ago, I was in almost exactly the same situation. I didn't study in the USA, but in Germany (Heidelberg), the regulations were a bit different, and I'm not formally diagnosed with math disability. I don't think I'm suffering from it in a medical sense, and actually, I somewhat doubt that you really do. Also, it wasn't my third college / attempt at getting a degree, but my first one. Everything else sounds extremely familiar to me:

  • B.Sc. Applied Computer Science
  • Mandatory Calculus 1 and 2 courses
  • No possibility to replace them with alternative courses
  • Me being really, really bad at it, while being good to very good at almost all other courses (actually, I was often best or close to best of the class in other courses, I don't want to brag, just highlight the extremeness of the situation) .
  • Spending the vast majority of my study time with learning math, especially calculus, trying to solve homework exercises the whole day long, every day, effectively having no free time for a few years, at least not without guilty conscience. I never counted the hours I spent with math, but subjectively, I think it was over 80% of my study time. I could do all of the excersises for all of the other courses I did at the same time (usually between two and four) in much less time than those for Calculus 1/2 alone.
  • Suffering from severe doubts that I'll ever make it through it and get my degree

In the end, I did, and graduated with a 1.5 / "very good" grade (1.0 is best possible, 4.0 is the worst that still counts as passed, below means failure). It took me much longer than officially intended, but I did it.

And to make this clear: I didn't study so freaking hard only because of unfounded fear of failure, and then in the end "surprisingly" got out of it with top grades, like it often happens ;). Especially in calculus 2, I was really bad and just barely passed it with a 4.0. And even this only after I had spent a full semester doing only the calculus 2 lecture, after several failed or canceled attempts, and after I had already completed all other courses I needed for the degree (we were allowed to do our courses in any order we wanted). Calculus 1 was somewhat better, but there, too, I needed two attempts.

And after I had finally finished the B.Sc., I did my M.Sc. degree, which, fortunately, was free of any obligatory math courses. Ironically, I finished the M.Sc. with a slightly lower final grade than the B.Sc., even though it was a lot easier.

Math is hard, and Calculus is especially hard for most people, you're far from alone with that. Actually, I seriously believe that university level calculus is, for most people, one of the most intellectually challenging things that exist in the world, only surpassed by even harder math and physics topics. Without true passion for it, it is extremely hard to be successful in these things.

The good thing is, unless you're explicitly applying for a job that involves hardcore math, you'll never need it again in your whole life. Probably more than 99% of all software development jobs, including very well-paid ones, can be done easily without that stuff. I never needed it again, and I probably only remember maybe 5% of it (very rough estimate). If I had to do a first semester calculus 1 homework sheet now, I'd most probably be unable to solve even the easiest exercise on it, at least not without reading up on a lot of stuff again.

This, of course, opens up the question why it's so important at university in the first place, and there are probably two main answers for that: First, they use it to test the student's perseverance. Second, it's probably somewhat more important for academic careers (even in computer science), towards which university education still aims to some degree, even if most graduates take jobs in the industry.

So, my recommendation to you is the same as Tom's: Sit your ass down and "science the shit out of this" (Mark Watney, "The Martian"). If I somehow managed to do this, you, very likely, can do it, too. Maybe you have zero interest in it (like me), maybe your mind isn't made for it (like mine and most other people's). Without knowing you, I believe that you are one of the smarter students at your college (call it "benefit of doubt" if you like). And since even the most difficult courses are usually still designed in a way that smart people can somehow pass them, I believe that you can do it, too. And in case you really finally fail with no further attempts or alternatives left, you can still do something else.

If you want to be a software developer - as I already mentioned, you can totally be that without calculus skills. However, at least for the better jobs, it's probably easier to get them with an academic degree in your pocket. So, you could try study something/somewhere where calculus is not (or at least less) involved. Or try to work your way up without a degree. Probably harder, but not impossible, especially not in today's IT world, where so much programmers are currently needed that even my proverbial grandmother (not the real one) learns coding now. But, please, first try to pass calculus with all your power!

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

 

I think you're going to have a hard time in computer science if you have trouble with calculus.  Not because you need calculus, but because a lot of computer science is exactly the same types of symbolic manipulations that calculus involves.

If you just want to be a programmer, you might want to look into a trade school instead.

1 hour ago, a light breeze said:

I think you're going to have a hard time in computer science if you have trouble with calculus.  Not because you need calculus, but because a lot of computer science is exactly the same types of symbolic manipulations that calculus involves.

This could not be any wronger, and I thought I had made this very clear with my post!

Perhaps both require similar mental capabilities one a very high, abstract level (i.e. something unspecific like "logical thinking"). But that's exactly why I said that I think he's smart enough to do it.

In terms of specific content and questions, I say it is totally unrelated. The largest and most obvious dfference is that calculus, in the way it is typically taught at university and how the exercises are designed, is purely theoretical, while computer science is (yes, not always, but mostly) very practical.

Calculus looks like this (attention, fake math ahead, just to give an idea of the language and type of problems):

"Let K be a mithrodysryxional Pillermann orthomorph over a zitrupicimal flubbawash. Prove that for each element theta of K, there exists a trilligurbal mapping of theta to a closed Holzkopf space".

All on paper, five pages of cryptical writing, with no way to know whether your solution is right, or even whether you're working in the right direction, other than asking your tutor. And, most importantly, when you finally solved it after ten or more hours of hard thinking, you get: Exactly nothing, except maybe a feeling of accomplishment if it means something to you.

Compare this to computer science or programming, where you develop actual, pratical solutions to real problems and can test them by actually implementing them in a code and running it on a computer. And ideally, you'll even get beautiful images like in game development and scientific visualization.

To me, the two could hardly be further apart.

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There are theoretical computer scientists in academics who do stuff that is much much closer to math than what a typical software developer does, that's true. But first, I found even this (lecture about theoretical computer science) much easier than calculus, and second, this is still far from what you're doing in everyday life as a programmer/software developer/software engineer/however you want to name it. I have several years of work experience both in the industry and in academia, and so far, I have never (not even in my research group at the university) done anything that required specific knowledge from the calculus lectures. A few mathematical elements/concepts/formulas yes, but the sort of problems and way of thinking? No, zero.

Of course I pick my work that way, sure. But this is perfectly possible and very much the norm rather than an exception. Very few people, no matter if software developers or any other kind of profession, ever in their lives encounter the type of mathematics we're talking about here, unless they study it at university, work in theoretical astrophysics, or something like this. To a somewhat lesser extent probably also in fields like high-end finance, I have no idea how abstract this is, but at least it has a real-life application. Theoretical mathematics has only a very small overlap with the "real" world, it is its own, pretty much isolated universe.

But in the end, the thing is: Calculus and software development might be similar on a very abstract level, and both are surely difficult. And because they are both difficult, the question whether you'll be successful in one or the other boils down to the question whether you have motivation/passion for it. For calculus or classic, theoretical math in general, I have no motivation. For software development, I have endless motivation.

And in the end, this is exactly what makes all the difference. It's not "mathematical disability", it's just a lack of fun, and without fun, you simply get nowhere in mathematics. It's just way too difficult.

 

3 hours ago, wurstbrot said:

Compare this to computer science or programming, where you develop actual, pratical solutions to real problems and can test them by actually implementing them in a code and running it on a computer. And ideally, you'll even get beautiful images like in game development and scientific visualization.

Do not confuse computer science with the practical craft of computer programming.  They are only marginally similar field.  You don't need to study English in order to be a writer, you don't need to study music to form a band, and you don't need to study computer science in order to be a programmer.

If you're programming on a real computer, you're a programmer.  If you're writing formal proofs about the hypothetical properties of hypothetical algorithms on hypothetical computers, you're a computer scientist.  This is computer science.

15 hours ago, RidiculousName said:

Assuming the dean of Computer Science (who has a PHD in Mathematics) doesn't let me replace my Calculus classes with other coursework, what should I do?

Don't let the challenges that come with Calculus dictate your future.

15 hours ago, RidiculousName said:

Even so, most of my work is graded F.

Like Tom said, try your hardest and start a dialogue with your professors.  Let them know how passionate you are about computer programming and it is what you want to do and let them know you're struggling with Calculus ( it is for the majority of people ).  Take their advice and follow-through on it.  And if you have to fail Calculus so be it, take it again.

3 hours ago, a light breeze said:

Do not confuse computer science with the practical craft of computer programming.  They are only marginally similar field.  You don't need to study English in order to be a writer, you don't need to study music to form a band, and you don't need to study computer science in order to be a programmer.

If you're programming on a real computer, you're a programmer.  If you're writing formal proofs about the hypothetical properties of hypothetical algorithms on hypothetical computers, you're a computer scientist.  This is computer science.

This is theoretical computer science. I'm against the "elitist" view that only abstract theory counts as "real" computer science. There is a lot more to it than just formal proofs of computability and time complexity.

The exact title of my degrees is "applied computer science", so I guess the lectures I attended were supposed to be a bit more practically oriented. I still found a lot of it very theoretical. But, as I already mentioned, even theoretical computer science was a lot easier for me than calculus.

Anway. Fact is that for many many computer science students, "applied" or not, the math part is by far the hardest.

Fact is also that "computer science" as an academic degree / study schedule, whatever the courses are exactly about, is still the default, expected high-level education for software developers, no matter how little the practical work on their jobs has to do with how you formally define "computer science".

I have as of yet to pass calculus as well, yet I am a full-stack developer professionally. Focus on learning how to do what you want to do career wise, and complete projects that demonstrate your ability.

21 hours ago, RidiculousName said:

I admit I don't like Calculus. Math has always been my least-favorite subject, and the one I am forced to spend the most time on

I can't really say anything about your degree since mine is in a different subject, but I can give you some tips for Calculus (note though, that I am not familiar with your disability of course, so I'm unsure how much this is going to help you).

I never enjoyed math myself, and did pretty bad in high school. When I switched to Uni, that changed drastically. In my opinion, Calculus is a pretty easy subject once you stop telling yourself that you can't do it (I'm not saying you're telling it yourself, I'm just saying that's what I told myself) and especially once you start looking into visualizations / geometric interpretations.
I really would recommend you to look up 3blue1brown's "Essence Of Calculus" playlist on youtube, if you're struggling with the core concepts of calculus.

15 hours ago, wurstbrot said:

Math is hard, and Calculus is especially hard for most people, you're far from alone with that.

I think it's a bad attitude to go into this subject telling yourself how hard it is.
The concepts of calculus are all really basic & intuitive once you look past the cryptic writing.
I'm not going to argue that so many people struggle with it though. In my opinion that's due to a mixture of bad teaching, lazyness (because you definitely need to put time into it) and attitude.

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