the ps2 also only has 32meg of ram with a 4meg video card. while many pcs today have 128meb to 256meg of ram. video cards range from 32meg to 64meg. agp increases the ram a video card can access quickly, but that would not be needed since most games were designed with the 4meg vram limitation. also dont forget todays video cards can use compressed textures while the ps2 cannot thus increasing the availible storage on the pc video card to cache even more texture data. while the multi cpu architecture is a problem due to complex timing and very likly using custom chips with little documentation. the bus bandwidth is not a problem as you think. just because the ps2 has to move data across a bus does not mean the pc must move the data. realize that the reults moving across the bus are mostly results of moving data from system ram to vram. something not required much by pc video cards. (dont forget as well that many ps2 games ran at 640x240 due to vram limitations) i am not saying it will be easy for the person/group that does it (as it will be done), just that many ppl ignore just how talented some programmers are. with dynamic recompiling, i am sure that at least early games will be playable on 1.5ghz system. dont forget everyone said playable n64 emulation could only be done on a 1ghz pc, which was proved quite wrong with ultraHLE.
as to bleem, it was crap, but the first psx emulator to not require any bios making it 100% legal to distribute as a complete working emulator. while emulators using the bios could not be distributed with the bios thus requiring the user to grab the bios themselves via gameshark (or the net). though those free psx emulators rival ps2 in capatibility and graphics quality.
ps2 emulators
Just a quick note on this thread.
The PS2 really is a 128 bit machine. In a single cycle it can do 128 operations (integer or floating point).
It has MMX like integer operations (where you can operate on 16 bytes, 8 words, 4 dwords etc., at once) as well as two vector units which can each process 4 floats at once (like a vector multiply).
This is different from (for example) N64 where while technically it was a 64 bit CPU, 98% of all apps only used it with 32 bits (since the C compiler was 32 bit, and 64 bit pointers are a waste on a console).
The only reason a N64 emulator worked so well, is you could intercept the N64 graphics at a high-level. With PS2 this is near impossible (since most developers bang on the hardware directly at a low-level in many different ways).
A PS2 emulator that runs at close to full speed is probably not possible with current PC hardware. However, feel free to prove me wrong.
P.S. I note that most Game Boy Advanced Emulators can't even always run at full speed...
The PS2 really is a 128 bit machine. In a single cycle it can do 128 operations (integer or floating point).
It has MMX like integer operations (where you can operate on 16 bytes, 8 words, 4 dwords etc., at once) as well as two vector units which can each process 4 floats at once (like a vector multiply).
This is different from (for example) N64 where while technically it was a 64 bit CPU, 98% of all apps only used it with 32 bits (since the C compiler was 32 bit, and 64 bit pointers are a waste on a console).
The only reason a N64 emulator worked so well, is you could intercept the N64 graphics at a high-level. With PS2 this is near impossible (since most developers bang on the hardware directly at a low-level in many different ways).
A PS2 emulator that runs at close to full speed is probably not possible with current PC hardware. However, feel free to prove me wrong.
P.S. I note that most Game Boy Advanced Emulators can't even always run at full speed...
quote:Original post by jenovaI agree with you, but I think a few people are trying to come up with good reasons that it would be in Sony''s best interest to release an emulator. I was just pointing out what (I think) is one reason Sony would never want to do that. I''m not at all saying that others wouldn''t benefit from an emulator.
Myopic Rhino: while i agree with you on that point. i do one potential benefit of emulators. a) it allows hobbyist and newbie programmers a virtual platform as a stepping stone to understanding console programming (which is little different than developing for the PC). i personally coded a MIPS R3xxx emulator and this helped me understand the MIPS architecture a lot better, as i did not have a MIPS platform to program on before i hax0r''d my PS2.
quote:Original post by Johnny_W
See things this way...
Sony makes a PS2 for $500 (just a guess, I may be wrong, but I do know that they loose money from each system sold). They sell the system for $300 resulting in a loss of $200. If they dont sell that system, though, its a loss of $500. If they did make an emulator, they''d probably have to stop selling systems because no one would be buying them and they''d keep loosing hundreds of dollars for each emulator they sell. Now you see why companies don''t favor emulators? On its highest level, one would think by making an emulator, you''re saving Sony the $200 it looses on a system, but in reality, all you''d be doing is depriving Sony of $500. Geddit now?
Johnny Watson
Owner/Main Programmer Vigasotech, Inc.
This is wrong. They WOULD be $200 better off, because they aren''t losing $500 if they don''t have to make the system in the first place. They make more on the games than the systems anyway, so I don''t see why an emulator doesn''t make sense, so long as you can prevent people from pirating the games.
AP: while it is true that the PS2 has 128-bit instructions that can be executed in 1 cycle (barring pipeline stalls), i could easily see many of the vu0 (in cop2 macromode) being emulated by P3 SSE instructions. furthermore the MMU instructions (MMX type instructions) again can be emulated by MMX itself (tho, you''ll see a performance hit for the "emms" instruction). secondly, with dynamic compilation you can start weeding out unnecessary performance hits. think the hardest parts of the emulation would have to "vu0/1" running microcode, as well as the IOP, and doing this in parallel to the CPU core. but again, i ain''t talking about emulating this on a PII Celeron 600MHz (don''t even consider it). i''m talking high-end machine.
NOTE: i wonder how the Itanium would do? it''s a nice peice of hardware.
To the vast majority of mankind, nothing is more agreeable than to escape the need for mental exertion... To most people, nothing is more troublesome than the effort of thinking.
NOTE: i wonder how the Itanium would do? it''s a nice peice of hardware.
To the vast majority of mankind, nothing is more agreeable than to escape the need for mental exertion... To most people, nothing is more troublesome than the effort of thinking.
quote:Original post by jenova
i do one potential benefit of emulators. a) it allows hobbyist and newbie programmers a virtual platform as a stepping stone to understanding console programming (which is little different than developing for the PC).
Frankly put, nobody gives a fuck about hobbyist and newbie developers. That''s what PCs are for. Once you can program for the PC of your choice - yes, including Mac or whatever - (and understand its assembly language), you get a licensed developers kit through the company you work for and learn the console. Which is yet another avenue of revenue for the console manufacturers.
I fail to understand why so many people think console manufacturers are/should be benevolent. This is business; ergo, it''s all about the benjamins.
Conclusion: emulators do not work in the favor of any closed, proprietary technology manufacturer, which is why they pursue emulator developers (unless their systems are out of production). In that case, they require you to have purchased the original software (see MAME issues).
[ GDNet Start Here | GDNet FAQ | MS RTFM | STL | Google ]
Thanks to Kylotan for the idea!
Ok lets say for a second that it was possible to get a Ps2 emulator up and running decently on a PC. Then you come to the part of the data encription(Magic Gate software) of the dvd disc which cannot be read in any standard dvd drive today. Magic Gate also serves as an anti-pirarcy program. I guess Sony learned that once bitten twice shy(Sony and assorted developers lost alot of money because of CD-Writable drives).
magic-gate affects only memory card boot block. even crazier is that you can just copy the files using ANY standard DVD-ROM drive. thats correct, plop the ps2 game in your drive and you can access all the files on it. you can watch most of the videos in games as well using software developed by hobbyists. since most video is mpeg2 due to the mpeg2 hardware on the ps2. i have personally have run videos from a ps2 demo disc i revceived in the mail as well as gta3.
you can if brave (which i would not do since imho is too risky, and you lose too much from the rip unless you can afford the vastly expensive dvd recorder), you can get a simple modchip and run cdr (and dvdr) copies of games. though i think you may need to tweak the laser to read the dvdrs.
you would be surprised how much extra dummy data is on a ps2 game disc. also to fit games on cdrs, things like videos are removed or replaced by shorter videos. copy protection (like cd/dvd checks) are removed from the binary, and the lba offset table is modified to ensure the game finds the files where it expects them.
i dont condone, nor practice piracy. i though find it interesting how resourcful the pirates are at combating anti copy protection.
you can if brave (which i would not do since imho is too risky, and you lose too much from the rip unless you can afford the vastly expensive dvd recorder), you can get a simple modchip and run cdr (and dvdr) copies of games. though i think you may need to tweak the laser to read the dvdrs.
you would be surprised how much extra dummy data is on a ps2 game disc. also to fit games on cdrs, things like videos are removed or replaced by shorter videos. copy protection (like cd/dvd checks) are removed from the binary, and the lba offset table is modified to ensure the game finds the files where it expects them.
i dont condone, nor practice piracy. i though find it interesting how resourcful the pirates are at combating anti copy protection.
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