Let''s just say it''s a matter of personal preference, Hase, and leave it at that.

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-SpittingTrashcan

You can''t have "civilization" without "civil".

Oh boy...hmm, let me see if I can remember just a HANDFUL of games I''ve played and owned...

AD&D 1st and 2nd editions
Villains and Vigilantes-SuperHero (made by Fantasy Games Unlimited) ca. 1983
Champions 1st-4th editions-SuperHero(gone through 3 publishers) ca. 1983
Justice Inc.-Pulp Fiction (used Hero system)ca. 1984
Traveller 1-3rd editions-Sci-Fi(too many publishers to list)
Top Secret-Secret Agent (can''t remember who made it originally, then by TSR)ca. 1984
Twillight 2000-post Apocalypse (by Games Workshop)ca 1985
James Bond-secret agent (can''t remember who made this one)ca. 1985
MechWarrior-Sci-Fi (FASA) ca 1985
Heroes Unlimited-super hero (Palladium) ca 1985
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles-super hero (Palladium) ca 1985
Paranoia-sci-fi/humor (West End games) ca 1986
Robotech-sci-fi (Palladium) ca 1985
AfterMath-post Apocalypse (Fantasy Games Unlimited) ca 1986
Recon- Vietnam War (Palladium, orignally another company) ca 1985
Bushido-Samurai (can''t remember publisher) ca 1985
Call of Cthulu-horror (originally Chaosium) ca 1986
Chills!-horror (can''t remember publisher) ca 1987
Morrow Project-post apocalypse (can''t remember publisher) ca 1987
HEavy Metal-scifi (originally by Phoenix Games) ca 1987
Rifts-sci-fi (Palladium) ca 1986
Shadowrun-scifi/fantasy (FASA) ca 1986
2300AD-scifi (Games Workshop, not to be confused with GDW) ca 1986
Star Wars-duhh (West End Games originally) ca 1987
Skyrealms of Jorune-fantasy (can''t remember publisher) ca 1987
Harn-fantasy (Columbia Games) ca 1987
Beyond the Supernatural-horror (Palladium) ca 1987
Dark Secrets-horror (Games Workshop) ca 1988
Millenium''s End-modern (can''t remember publisher) ca 1988
Time Lords-modern (BTRC) ca 1988
SpaceTime-scifi/cyber (BTRC) ca 1988
Cyberpunk-scifi/cyber (R. Talisorian) ca 1987
Mekton-scifi (R. Talisorian) ca 1988
Amber-fantasy (Phantasy Phage) ca 1993
SLA Industries-sci/cybergoth (can''t remember publisher)
All the stuff from White Wolf
Fading Suns-
Castle Falkenstein

Well, this is just a tiny list, as I know I''m forgetting a lot (I can already think of several that I can''t remember the names of the games). I''ve owned almost all of the games I listed above...although I only have about half of them now. I once calculated that I spent over 3000$ on my rpg''s over the years

Of all the games that I played though, only a few really shined. Heavy Metal was a very obscure but very interesting game background. IT was also based on a very realistic game setting (which is probably why it wasn''t a popular one...I''ve noticed that most gamers enjoy very simple games over more complex ones....unfortunately). Also, I thoroughly enjoyed Justice Inc, as playing games in a pulp fiction setting in the 20''s and 30''s was always a blast...my most memorable game sessions came from that game..and it was my favorite to GM. I also very much enjoyed Castle Falkenstein and Fading Suns. Falkenstein for it''s pseudo-history/fantasy setting, and Fading Suns for it''s truly gothic setting.

I''m not including many of the board games I''ve played, nor the historical miniatures, otherwise I''d create a list easily twice as long. But I think perhaps that''s why I''m a bit different than others when it comes to my game design ideas. I''m one of the few people I know of that have played and enjoyed both pen and paper RPG''s and also historical games. Usually both crowds are mutually exclusive. I think it accounts for why I prefer very detailed settings

Dauntless, that''s an impressive list. Speaking of complex RPGs...did you ever try any of the Rolemaster series, by Iron Crown Enterprises (ICE)? The game rules consisted of a series of ''Law'' modules. It was very complicated and took a long time to master.

A watered-down version of these rules were used in MERP (Middle Earth Role-Playing).

Just curious.

R.

Tacit

Indeed I did play RoleMaster and MERP Thanks for reminding me of those games. I also played SpaceMaster too. I really miss MERP actually, and ICE in general (they not only owned the above mentioned games, but Silent Death, and the Hero Games stuff for awhile). MERP was the game that REALLY introduced me to the Tolkein world, and now that I think about it, I must have played it around about 1985 or so. That''s where I learned that Gandalf the Grey was actually a demi-god and all the differences of the men of Numenor (Corsairs, Gondoreans, Black Numenors, etc)

The Rolemaster setting was a bit awkward in a way though. I don''t like any system that doesn''t rely on a non-bell curve probablity system. For this, I mean that Rolemaster used a d100 system. However, it is equally as probable to roll a 01, a 50 or a 100. To me, that leads to a sort of quirkiness. I prefer bell curve systems, or systems where you roll a set of dice, but you have a target number to match (for example the original 1st edition of Shadowrun or Star Wars) and the number of successes determines how well you do.

Like I said, I know I''m forgetting tons of games. My best friend''s father used to own a hobby store. At first, I was introduced to historical gaming through my father by playing Johnny Reb at the store (JR is probably the most acclaimed Civil War miniatures game) around about 1983 when I was the ripe old age of 11 About a year later, we started playing some micro armor, and that''s when I met some other kids my age that weren''t interested in the Civil War...but were interested in tanks. So this little core group started branching out into RPG''s. Actually I didn''t start with AD&D with them...we started with Champions, and pretty much followed the list I had previously.

I think any game designer thinking of a computer RPG should glance at some paper and pen RPG''s. I think there''s a lot of ideas to be had...despite the fact that PPRPG''s are of a different nature than computer ones. Still, some of those games had some very interesting backgrounds, and I think any computer game designer can take a lesson or two from paper role playing games, not to mention board games and miniatures games.

For my own little pet project, I''ve had MUCH of my inspiration come from Jon Tuffley''s excellent set of miniatures rules systems- StarGruntII and DirtSideII. These games blow away (imho) BattleTech, CAV, Heavy Gear or any of the other of scads of futuristic sci-fi tactical/strategy games.

Dauntless: Nice to see an RPGer of the same vintage as me.

Bill6, re: Call of Cthulhu:

The setting was amazing, but you do know they came from H.P. Lovecraft''s novels and short stories, right?

Wow, I''m surprised I forgot about GURPS and Warhammer Fantasy. I played Warhammer back when it came out in 1987, and no one really knew who Games Workshop was

I actually played the predecessor to GURPS...it was a duelling game called Man to Man I believe, and it used the same basic system that GURPS still uses. That came out around about 1985, although it wasn''t truly a roleplaying game at the time.

Did anyone play CarWars? I''m kind of surprised no one has remade the classic Origins game. I even did a little roleplaying with the old Autoduel Champions.

Man, I wonder how many other games I forgot?? I''ll need to make a trip down ebay to jog my memory I should look at some of this stuff for some ideas.