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Warsong

Opposites lead to logical layout + vs -

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Lets evaluate opposites creativly. Let me talk a bit basic for a second to get things in motion. It may seem simple but realy isn''t as simple as you may think it is. For instance their is 2 sides to thing like binary (black and white) but to see things a bit more clearly lets look at it in 4 sides (foward is the opposite of back, and their opposites are left and right). So answer this the oposite of black and white are? lol I was thinking that it would be true gray and semi gray (black and white small dots to make it look gray) OK the point is that many charts are out to see things logicaly which havent been out for a long time like an emotion chart which showes every emotion like mad opp. of happy and their opposits are sad its opp. of fear. and they go into different degrees on how intence they. But basicaly do you see the basic binary structure in it? ++ -- +- -+ So in games what Charts are their? Is their a game type chart? action is the opposite of what? strategy? or adventure is to rpg? Or what about other aspects in the design of games? Like big strong enemy opp. of small weak enemy, so their is big weak enemy opp. to small strong enemy. well can someone explain actions? attack is to defend and their opposite is? And so on. If this forum is to hard for you then just try and answer or just watch. Take care

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"For instance their is 2 sides to thing like binary (black and white) but to see things a bit more clearly lets look at it in 4 sides (foward is the opposite of back, and their opposites are left and right)."


There aren''t really four sides there.
You have to use parentheses.
(black vs. white) vs. (light gray vs. dark gray).
Altogether that''s only 3 sets of binary comparisons.

Now, I suppose I see how one could argue that way, however,
I see it as more like averaging.
(black+white)/2 = gray.

There are different ways to see that, of course.
But, anything that isn''t something else can always be seen as an
opposite. The opposite of being a book is not being a book.
So, everything that''s not a book is a book''s opposite.

You can get as abstract or specific as you like, of course.
My perception, tho, is that black&white vs. l.gray&d.gray are not
opposites. White is an additive to black. Therefore, gray is
just an intensity of white on black.

-Hyatus
"da da da"

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To correct one a thing is that (happy vs. sad) vs. (mad vs. fear) oops sorry. Well why didn’t anyone pick that up? I guess your people didn’t get what I mean lol. Well why is this statement true? Look at each one in binary state.

Also about black and white being light and dark for opposite isn’t the right one. You are just talking about its intensity then it’s opposite. Kind of like the emotion chary to say the intensity of mad is vicious for more, or annoyed for less. I am not talking about intensity, but its counter part.

Here is a diagram to show u about the b/w

````true gray
````````|
white--------black
````````|
gray (no gray color shown but only black and white)
Did u see how old games or lets say game boy in how to mix a lot it has to use 2 colors to make it look like the color u want like small dots? Checkers shading I think it’s called.

But maybe for b/w its intensity goes in a circle

````g
```____
``/`````\`
w|``````|b
``\____/
```b/w

that is supposes to be a circle.

But anyway back to games what is action strategy and what r its opposites? How can someone define a game when they don’t even know what it is lol. I see some people categorize games in what they aren’t many times and it’s annoying.
They confuse games that use the mind with reflex or luck.

So the opposite of that would be

(mind vs. luck) vs. (reflex vs. ????) lol I'm stuck or too lazy.
Which those in games are somewhat alike to…
(Strategy vs. gambling) vs. (shooter vs. ????)
Also its categories between.

Edited by - warsong on February 16, 2002 12:08:27 PM

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I admit it - I really have no clue what you''re talking about.

I don''t think everything can be categorised like that. And I don''t think gambling is necessarily the opposite of strategy, since the risks usually have clear probabilities associated with them.

[ MSVC Fixes | STL | SDL | Game AI | Sockets | C++ Faq Lite | Boost ]

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The opposite of black AND white would be color to my mind. Grey would lie on the black-white "line" and would be a quantified value on that line. If u take it a little further the line is a circle with 180 degrees between max and min values.

So if u look at opposites in a geometrical sense, a opposite pair forms a line, so in a three dimensional orthogonal base any opposite pair would have one of two opposites. So if u combine the forward and backard rays u get a line, lets say its parallel to the z axis. So both the left-right and the up-down would be considered opposites, anything parallel to the x axis or y axis.

In terms of the other things u mentioned its a bit harder because u first have to identify your orthogonal bases. The simplest way I can explain the concept how I see this would be what different people center there lives around. Some people live their lives about Good-Evil, other about Money (poor-rich, i think this evaluate to a base emotion of life-death). A person who HAS to live on a pure survivalist level will make choices based purely upon that without any regard to right-wrong. This basically proves these two ideals are orthogonal, but the trick is to evaluate the number of orthonganal planes of the problem domain... in this case with emotions and the human condition.

After that u could make actions, or any composite exist as a vector in your N-dimensional orthogonal base. Anyway thats the way I would go about looking at what u said... what u think?


-potential energy is easily made kinetic-

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O come on
Don''t make me do all the work lol

Can every sound of the voice get charted out???

Phonetics laid it out. The internet sucks in finding a lot of thing but information is mostly in books.

As for emotions look at it in a basic layout.
Why is (happy vs. sad)vs.(mad vs. fear)????
Basically they can all be defined with 2 basic words for each, and you use their 2 words and their opposite to define them all.
So Like the title says + -
So happy is a ++,sad --, mad +-, fear -+
I forgot the basic explanations to them lol I lost my book lol but I think you get the basic meaning.

About black and white it was a basic thing but their is every color laid out, and black and white have their place in it.

But in a game aspect I see there aren’t any real inventors but mostly copy cats. Well I am not saying that their can be an infinite # of games originality, but there games that haven’t been thought of yet even at a 2d game level.

So look at all the aspects of what a person uses to play the game like using your mind in the game vs. no skill meaning luck, vs. using instinct like reflexes and ???? lol

Let’s look at it in more basic terms.
in 2 words for each use to define in and its opposite should have the opposite definition.

mind- uses thought to deduct.
luck- doesn’t use thought

and for this use one of each of the last 2 in a way to get the next 2.
reflex- uses ability
and I am thinking maybe cardinal knowledge is opposite of it.

mind ++, luck --, reflex +-, knowledge -+

just because someone knows trivial facts doesn’t meant they are smart. they are 2 different aspects.
So knowledge is basically used for games like scrabble or Carmen Sandiego which their aren’t plenty games that use cardinal knowledge in information of what society has but of remembering how the game is in its rules and locations mostly like rpg''s.

Would people play a new 3d adventure of Carmen Sandiego? lol back to topic. each one is used in degrees and but dont catagorize it that way. inagin if games were labeled to say 40% intelect, 25% luck, 25% relex, and 10% knowladge.

No game would be 100% in one aspect. But some have a high mark like slot machines for instance that might be 90% luck or would you think its more? lol

take care

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Infinisearch you do have a point and yeah I know what you mean. And some things do have more but in color it’s just more of an intense than the opposites. A true extreme of red green blue would be white or black. so maybe its (white vs. black)vs. (gray vs. color) and since u bring up a third dimension it would something else like clear as glass or nothing as in a void. And since theirs a void their and direction wasn’t indicated then there should be another direction which I would assume its zero degrees meaning no direction. So that would have a 4th dimension.


in your example of good and evil would also have 3 dimentions
is evil does evil
is eveil does good
is good does evil
is good goes good

is nurtal vs its nothing

Take care

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Color is not a good topic to introduce your topic because you it depends on what point of view u are looking at it from. For example one way to look at color is the following: Black is the lack of light/color, white is the presence of all colors, and colors are everything inbetween those two extremes. Another way to look at it is what i mentioned before where black and white is one set and color is another. Opposites in general can be very subjective because different views upon the same data model the same data differently. As for clear and void they are not colors, they are physical properties and represent a different domain of thought.
You misinterpreted what I meant in regards to good and evil. Lets say u were trying to map out what domain of thoughts people base the decisions they make in life. By the very nature of our thoughts there seems to be opposites involved, action vs. inaction... But for u to accurately map these opposites out u have to map out the orthogonal bases first. By orthogonal I mean where two things do not affect each other, mutually independent.
In my example some people will label possible actions as good or evil and will take always try to choose the action which they identify with. In otherwords a person who bases there life on good vs. evil will identify themselves as being one or the other and try to embody that ideal through there actions. But what about a person who sometime chooses things they label as good and other times evil? Simple they do not base there life purely on that domain of thought. In my other post I brought up survival, that is another domain of thought that a person can base there decisions on. That domain of thought is an opposite of good-evil, because if u base your actions on a live or die level labeling an action good or bad is irrelevent.
There of course will be possible actions which affect multiple axis''s which is why I said look at things geometrically because it lets u picture shit and might let u apply math to analyze situations. For example it is possible for a action labeled as good help u survive but the opposite is also possible. More over doing something good can also have no effect on survival. That last statement is the ''orthogonalality'' i was speaking about. Anyway that is the method i would use to analyze opposites, but like i said watch out for subjective domains of thought and identify independent bases. In your example of video game types you say mind vs. luck well you could also say mind vs. reflex, they are not pure opposites. You can have a game that requires thought and reflexes can''t u? And a game can be very reflex intensive at one time and very thought involved the next. What exactly are u trying to accomplish by analyzeing opposites? Game AI?


-potential energy is easily made kinetic-

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I think I''m being tripped up by incomprehensible grammar =)

You could come up with any number of combinations like this, but fuzzy definitions of opposites are very subjective (especially in terms of good and evil). There are very few true opposites.

What I don''t understand is the application of these models.

As Infinisearch said, "What exactly are u trying to accomplish by analyzeing opposites? Game AI?"

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Just because something doesn''t affect doesn''t mean it’s the opposite.

And it’s not about AI, which there some things to that if you look at pacman. The 4 ghosts follow, wonder, assume, and wait at the power pellets.

But the point isn’t about AI which can be evaluated their but about categories and its sub categories in how much of a percentage it is being used. That is the specific topic.

But we can look at other aspects also like good and bad in a game. I don’t care to take on a so called "bad guy" or "good guy" in the game. No one in life says they are bad, but show they are good but do mess ups in a way.
Like a saying goes, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
Using opposite to make a list to see what has or hasn’t been done and how much.

p.s. Infinsearch, potential energy made to kinetic, but can they work together to do more to the point of infinity?

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Here goes an attempt to visualize everything:

Good and evil are on a line. Good is positive infinity on that line; evil is negative. So good is zero-dimensional and evil is zero-dimensional. Neither, however, is a discrete point, but an infinity. Good-evil is one-dimensional; it is a line.

Good is opposite evil on the good-evil line. Another line, however, can be opposite the good-evil line if it is orthogonal. These two lines form a plane; this is two-dimensional. There can also be a plane orthogonal to this plane; this plane will be the "opposite."

I hope you can picture the geometric representation of what I believe Warsong is trying to get across. It is a picture of rays, lines, planes, and hyperplanes.

An alternative representation which I think is more useful is simply of angles in a unit circle. Good is 0. Evil is 180. More complicated systems of values can have multiple opposing measures. In Starcraft, assuming all races are equally opposing one another, then the following could work: Terran is 0. Zerg is 120. Protoss is 240. However, because Terran and Protoss are sort-of allied against Zerg, thea angle between Terran and Protoss would have to be reduced, such that their average equals Zerg + 180. You get the picture, I hope.

Edited by - TerranFury on February 24, 2002 10:45:32 PM

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quote:
Original post by TerranFury
Another line, however, can be opposite the good-evil line if it is orthogonal. These two lines form a plane; this is two-dimensional. There can also be a plane orthogonal to this plane; this plane will be the "opposite."

i don''t see the relation between orthagonality and opposite-ness (are either of those real words?)... if something is orthagonal it simply means it is on an unrelated axis. Good vs. Evil are on one line, and OpenGL vs. DirectX (Up vs. Down, Order vs. Chaos, whatever) are on another; because they are unrelated they are orthagonal. any relationship between these two lines is completely contrived, as by definition they are orthagonal.
this is silly.

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Or you could think of good and evil as being represented by real or imaginary numbers, e.g

good == 1
evil == sqrt(-1);

thus you get the relation:

e^(evil*X) = (good * cos(X)) + (evil * sin(X))

I think this would be very profound, if only I knew what X meant.



Edited by - Sandman on February 25, 2002 11:41:41 AM

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quote:
Lets evaluate opposites creativly.

i should have read more carefully. participating in this discussion will only try my patience... why do people insist on trying to "evalute" straightforward concepts "creatively"? you cannot arbitrarily pick a function/formula/geometric representation and assign it to whatever you like; well, i suppose you can but it is silly. yes, it is fun to philosophize, but really! if i were to make a bold statement like, "red has nothing to do with cheese, so they are opposites and i can draw them on separate axes and graph cheese vs. red vs. good vs. evil" i would be quite disappointed if nobody told me it was bosh.
this is not to say you cannot "evalute" anything you like "creatively", but please don''t pretend that by including the word "creatively" you don''t have to make sense anymore.

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Krez, I am the one who started the whole geometric thing, Warsong just wanted to discuss opposites and i offered it up as a way to look at them. I don''t know about his applying it to game design but it is a profound topic because it is so subjective in nature.

Regardless warsong brought up a good point:
thing opposite(thing);
...
opposite(light) = dark
opposite(dark) = light

up until this point opposite acts like a boolean not, but what happens when:

opposite(light and dark) = ???

The reason i found this discussion interesting is the math involved and the possible applications to game AI. Would u agree the average person uses opposites quite often in every day life both conciously and sub-conciously? Whether is in evaluting something to choosing an action to tactics. And if so wouldn''t we need to model it in order to make AI more realistic in our games? Lets say in your game world u make the statement "opposites attract" a rule governing the behavior of your NPC''s in groups. How are u going to evaluate opposites? Its not as simple as just good-evil OR rich-poor... and if u made it that simple it just wouldn''t lead to the "realistic" behavior of your NPC''s.

Anyway the point I''m trying to make is modeling opposites in general can be of use. Besides if i wanted to get my mind off the topic good and evil maybe i''d go smoke a blunt and start thinking bout all the colors. And when i got the munchies i''d eat some cheese.

-potential energy is easily made kinetic-

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quote:
Original post by Infinisearch
I don''t know about his applying it to game design but it is a profound topic because it is so subjective in nature.

an affinity for cheese (or blunts) is subjective, this does not make it profound.
quote:
opposite(light) = dark
opposite(dark) = light
up until this point opposite acts like a boolean not, but what happens when:
opposite(light and dark) = ???

there is no light AND dark, they are opposites. dark is the absense of light. you cannot have both.
quote:
Anyway the point I''m trying to make is modeling opposites in general can be of use.

of course, that is true. i simply object to them being modelled in "creative" ways which make no sense.

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quote:
there is no light AND dark, they are opposites. dark is the absense of light. you cannot have both.

So you''d be looking at it not as "light and dark", but rather, "The presence or lack of light". You could probably shorten that up to "Brightness". From there, having identified it as a singular entity, rather than two individual seperate concepts, it would be possible to ascertain a direct oposite to the entity "Brightness", which would, obviously, be... er... eh... "Cheese and blunts". Or anything else completely unreleated to brightness, of which there are an infinite number of possible candidates.

The majority of this thread seems to be essentially pointless abstract ideas without meaning placed underneath a facade of scientific analysis. I don''t mean that in a bad way, of course.

It sounds like the original poster is saying that, through studying the opposites of various game genres, it would be possible to derive entirely new genres. That is an interesting idea, but (unless I am reading it wrong), cannot be successful for the simple reason that not everything has an opposite.

With paint, green is the opposite of red.
Why?
Not because of some deep philosophical truth that causes green and red to be at opposite ends of the chi-void in the parallel planes of consciousness. It''s because green is made of yellow and blue, which are the two remaining primary colors. There is a logical rule for the existance of "opposites" within this color spectrum.

Attempting to apply the concept of the opposite to, say, "Tree", will not render any meaningful result. What is the opposite of "Tree"? Is it "Root"? "Ashes"? "Empty Air"? "Vacuum"?

For the same reasons that it is not possible to determine an opposite to "Tree", it is not possible to determine an opposite to "Real-Time Strategy".

However, this does not mean that this vein of thought is worthless - it could be a useful mental vice when attempting to envision a new game concept. Just like imagining the "sound of one hand clapping" can throw your thought processes for a loop, imagining the "opposite of a third-person shooter" might be a catalyst that would force you to rethink your previous creative limitations.

I do, however, agree with Krez that this is pretty much just an attempt to model something that doesn''t exist under the guise of creativity.

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This is also to make you think. I am not asking for the opposite of tree lol that is an object and I am talking about ideology and concept that does have an opposite. If not true, then semi. Basically to make you think of other relations.
How can you see things all lied out when you don’t know how to lay it out? In a game have you every played a fighting platform RPG?
Creativity is lacking and everyone wants to copy and not evaluate. I have more original ideas that most. I see some games come out that I thought of that are cool but lack meant things because of their lack of evaluation. Their motivation is driven for the quick buck. And we have to know how something is and make it original and new and its reward will come.
-------------------
And just because I say it might be opposite doesn’t mean it truly the end all be all.

Also for light and dark you can''t see anything with true light and true dark. In being used as 100% is useless in that care. And their orthogonal (as one said) can be used to inspire other forms of creativity. And would be in the vicinity or what the original opposites are.

In a graph u have x and y but u also have + and - both are opposites and combined u get other variations. x+,x- y+,y-, if u think a bit more u will get another dimension if their is such a relation. z+,z-.

the opposite of heads is tales. so that’s their opposite? It doesn’t have to revolve around 1 main thing it can adapt to expand your mind. if a plant grows to big u but it in a bigger pot, if it gets bigger it goes into the garden.
so the opposite of heads and tails is????
---------------------------------------
Don’t look at it as 1 object but of what it is in its properties.
it has 2 sides and if u doubles u have 4 and then maybe 6

If you flip a dime you get 2 sides if flip a dice you get 6.

Also don’t you guys agree on the layout I said of the game type?
How would you put it?

Their can not be light without dark, evil without good, mind without luck, etc... You know what I mean?

Their are game good vs. evil

`````evil`good
good`-+``++
evil`--``+-

so what type of games us which formula the most? There seems to be mostly true good vs. evil. and not good/evil vs. good/evil.

Has anyone seen Gundam wing? There no true bad guy in that story and everyone strives for good. even Hitler thought he was good and so did many and if he won we would be persuades that he is good and the others were bad. There is no one that says they are bad.
Stories try to be prefect by making perfect good and perfect bad. But the problem is that it’s imperfect since there are mostly good intentions that do bad actions in life.

Games are a mindless and many other forums of entertainment and nothing seems to be evaluated but sue what so far works.

take care

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I gave that whole long n-dimensional geometry explanation in an attempt to put Warsong's idea into visualizable - if not practical - terms. To be honest, no matter how we look at it, we're just complicating matters. I admit opposites lead to logical layouts, but multiple aspects are unrelated. In other words, I don't think whole line-plane-hyperplace thing I describes has any uses whatsoever.

This just might have some uses, though:

            
|Cheap/Weak(-) v. Expensive/Strong(+) | Nature(-) v. Technology(+)
|_____________________________________|___________________________
Terran | 0 | +
Zerg | - | -
Protoss | + | 0



As you can see, simply by working within this framework, there's still room for several more races:

  
0, 0 Complete neutral; probably boring
0, - Medium-priced nature-based. Probably an individual-based society, rather than a collective.
+, + An expensive technology-based race. Think cyborgs.
+, - An expensive nature-based race. 'Secrets of the ancients' type stuff.
-, 0 Cheap, neutral race. Think cavemen.
-, + Cheap, technology-baed race. Think nano-tech.






Edited by - TerranFury on March 2, 2002 2:24:07 PM

Edited by - TerranFury on March 2, 2002 2:26:07 PM

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Guest Anonymous Poster
Well at least some get it but it has to be perfected more to have a layout don’t some agree? So how is that going to happen?

Also what about other aspects of game design? Theirs an entire list of things to evaluate.

Also for objects finding opposites well it depends on what you are looking at. If you want a bag you say either paper or plastic lol. If you look at writing down info you can say paper/pencil or keyboard. If we just say paper in its opposite you don’t know where to reflect it from.

You have to state a main thing to discuss in a way.

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