Opposites lead to logical layout + vs -

Warsong · 2002-03-03T14:05:12

Lets evaluate opposites creativly. Let me talk a bit basic for a second to get things in motion. It may seem simple but realy isn''t as simple as you may think it is. For instance their is 2 sides to thing like binary (black and white) but to see things a bit more clearly lets look at it in 4 sides (foward is the opposite of back, and their opposites are left and right). So answer this the oposite of black and white are? lol I was thinking that it would be true gray and semi gray (black and white small dots to make it look gray) OK the point is that many charts are out to see things logicaly which havent been out for a long time like an emotion chart which showes every emotion like mad opp. of happy and their opposits are sad its opp. of fear. and they go into different degrees on how intence they. But basicaly do you see the basic binary structure in it? ++ -- +- -+ So in games what Charts are their? Is their a game type chart? action is the opposite of what? strategy? or adventure is to rpg? Or what about other aspects in the design of games? Like big strong enemy opp. of small weak enemy, so their is big weak enemy opp. to small strong enemy. well can someone explain actions? attack is to defend and their opposite is? And so on. If this forum is to hard for you then just try and answer or just watch. Take care

Game Design and Theory Game Design

Started by Warsong February 15, 2002 11:59 PM

24 comments, last by Warsong 22 years, 1 month ago

Warsong

100

Author

February 22, 2002 08:59 PM

Just because something doesn''t affect doesn''t mean it’s the opposite.

And it’s not about AI, which there some things to that if you look at pacman.

The 4 ghosts follow, wonder, assume, and wait at the power pellets.

But the point isn’t about AI which can be evaluated their but about categories and its sub categories in how much of a percentage it is being used. That is the specific topic.

But we can look at other aspects also like good and bad in a game. I don’t care to take on a so called "bad guy" or "good guy" in the game. No one in life says they are bad, but show they are good but do mess ups in a way.
Like a saying goes, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"
Using opposite to make a list to see what has or hasn’t been done and how much.

p.s. Infinsearch, potential energy made to kinetic, but can they work together to do more to the point of infinity?

***Power without perception is useless, which you have the power but can you perceive?"All behavior consists of opposites. Learn to see backward, inside out and upside down."-Lao Tzu,Tao Te Ching Fem Nuts Doom OCR TS Pix mc NRO . .

krez

443

February 23, 2002 04:12 PM

Warsong, you make absolutely no sense at all.

--- krez ([email="krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net"]krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net[/email])

Kylotan

10,510

February 23, 2002 09:12 PM

Lol. I''m sure there''s a really profound implication for game design here, but I certainly can''t see it either

TerranFury

142

February 24, 2002 09:43 PM

Here goes an attempt to visualize everything:

Good and evil are on a line. Good is positive infinity on that line; evil is negative. So good is zero-dimensional and evil is zero-dimensional. Neither, however, is a discrete point, but an infinity. Good-evil is one-dimensional; it is a line.

Good is opposite evil on the good-evil line. Another line, however, can be opposite the good-evil line if it is orthogonal. These two lines form a plane; this is two-dimensional. There can also be a plane orthogonal to this plane; this plane will be the "opposite."

I hope you can picture the geometric representation of what I believe Warsong is trying to get across. It is a picture of rays, lines, planes, and hyperplanes.

An alternative representation which I think is more useful is simply of angles in a unit circle. Good is 0. Evil is 180. More complicated systems of values can have multiple opposing measures. In Starcraft, assuming all races are equally opposing one another, then the following could work: Terran is 0. Zerg is 120. Protoss is 240. However, because Terran and Protoss are sort-of allied against Zerg, thea angle between Terran and Protoss would have to be reduced, such that their average equals Zerg + 180. You get the picture, I hope.

Edited by - TerranFury on February 24, 2002 10:45:32 PM

Kylotan

10,510

February 24, 2002 10:53 PM

krez

443

February 25, 2002 10:19 AM

quote:Original post by TerranFury
Another line, however, can be opposite the good-evil line if it is orthogonal. These two lines form a plane; this is two-dimensional. There can also be a plane orthogonal to this plane; this plane will be the "opposite."

i don''t see the relation between orthagonality and opposite-ness (are either of those real words?)... if something is orthagonal it simply means it is on an unrelated axis. Good vs. Evil are on one line, and OpenGL vs. DirectX (Up vs. Down, Order vs. Chaos, whatever) are on another; because they are unrelated they are orthagonal. any relationship between these two lines is completely contrived, as by definition they are orthagonal.
this is silly.

--- krez ([email="krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net"]krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net[/email])

Sandman

2,211

February 25, 2002 10:41 AM

Or you could think of good and evil as being represented by real or imaginary numbers, e.g

good == 1
evil == sqrt(-1);

thus you get the relation:

e^(evil*X) = (good * cos(X)) + (evil * sin(X))

I think this would be very profound, if only I knew what X meant.

Edited by - Sandman on February 25, 2002 11:41:41 AM

krez

443

February 25, 2002 12:14 PM

quote:Lets evaluate opposites creativly.

i should have read more carefully. participating in this discussion will only try my patience... why do people insist on trying to "evalute" straightforward concepts "creatively"? you cannot arbitrarily pick a function/formula/geometric representation and assign it to whatever you like; well, i suppose you can but it is silly. yes, it is fun to philosophize, but really! if i were to make a bold statement like, "red has nothing to do with cheese, so they are opposites and i can draw them on separate axes and graph cheese vs. red vs. good vs. evil" i would be quite disappointed if nobody told me it was bosh.
this is not to say you cannot "evalute" anything you like "creatively", but please don''t pretend that by including the word "creatively" you don''t have to make sense anymore.

--- krez ([email="krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net"]krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net[/email])

Infinisearch

3,058

February 25, 2002 02:20 PM

Krez, I am the one who started the whole geometric thing, Warsong just wanted to discuss opposites and i offered it up as a way to look at them. I don''t know about his applying it to game design but it is a profound topic because it is so subjective in nature.

Regardless warsong brought up a good point:
thing opposite(thing);
...
opposite(light) = dark
opposite(dark) = light

up until this point opposite acts like a boolean not, but what happens when:

opposite(light and dark) = ???

The reason i found this discussion interesting is the math involved and the possible applications to game AI. Would u agree the average person uses opposites quite often in every day life both conciously and sub-conciously? Whether is in evaluting something to choosing an action to tactics. And if so wouldn''t we need to model it in order to make AI more realistic in our games? Lets say in your game world u make the statement "opposites attract" a rule governing the behavior of your NPC''s in groups. How are u going to evaluate opposites? Its not as simple as just good-evil OR rich-poor... and if u made it that simple it just wouldn''t lead to the "realistic" behavior of your NPC''s.

Anyway the point I''m trying to make is modeling opposites in general can be of use. Besides if i wanted to get my mind off the topic good and evil maybe i''d go smoke a blunt and start thinking bout all the colors. And when i got the munchies i''d eat some cheese.

-potential energy is easily made kinetic-

-potential energy is easily made kinetic-

krez

443

February 25, 2002 02:37 PM

quote:Original post by Infinisearch
I don''t know about his applying it to game design but it is a profound topic because it is so subjective in nature.

an affinity for cheese (or blunts) is subjective, this does not make it profound.

quote:opposite(light) = dark
opposite(dark) = light
up until this point opposite acts like a boolean not, but what happens when:
opposite(light and dark) = ???

there is no light AND dark, they are opposites. dark is the absense of light. you cannot have both.

quote:Anyway the point I''m trying to make is modeling opposites in general can be of use.

of course, that is true. i simply object to them being modelled in "creative" ways which make no sense.

--- krez ([email="krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net"]krez_AT_optonline_DOT_net[/email])

Opposites lead to logical layout + vs -

This topic is closed to new replies.

Popular Topics

Recommended Tutorials

Opposites lead to logical layout + vs -

This topic is closed to new replies.

Popular Topics

Recommended Tutorials

Reticulating splines