quote:Original post by Dwarf with Axe
OOC: Drizzt, I hope you know me axe waveth at yee in good humor. =)

I know.

quote:
..When I says somethin like "It's one thing to work with the design tools provided and create a thuroughly-thought out level so that the programmers and artists know exactly what to do, and it's another thing to sit around and just dream stuff up..."

What I mean is that I like designers who know what your saying when they ask you to do something and you say "Bah! That'll overload my +3 GreatStack of Memory!"

So then, what you really mean is that game designers who can't program or model, etc, should at least understand what the programmers and modellers are capable of, so when you respond to their ideas, they know what you're talking about? That would be my ideal designer.

quote:
BTW, D&D isn't just a great game, it's life. =)

Well, for an Elf and a Dwarf, I would say so. I don't know about the humans nowadays though, they tend to drag themselves into the fake world called "Earth" and forget to return to the real world...(D&D).

------------------------------
Simple DirectMedia Layer:

Main Site - (www.libsdl.org)
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Edited by - Drizzt DoUrden on February 18, 2002 9:23:43 AM

quote:Original post by Captain_RB
No offense towards any programmer who do an outstanding job pushing the limits for what''s possible in a game. But what you guys miss here is that there is more than just implementing a good idea that makes a game succesful or not. You have to consider interface design together with the logical structure.

But if the game was designed at it''s best, it would definately be more succesful.

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You have to check with gamers today what they feel they want.

When does this happen?

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So the Game Designer is just as important as the programmer. But I can agree on the note that some ppl call themselves Designers just cause the have a nice idea.

No one said that designers aren''t important; we said that if they are going to call themselves designers, they should do their job.

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Being Game Designer is so much more than that. And it''s nothing you can trivialize and say every programmer can do, that''s not the facts today.

Sadly, you are wrong. Programmers and artists are intelligent people. Artists are creative; isn''t that part of being a designer? Programmers have a great way of figuring things out, which would help them design levels, puzzles, etc. I mean, these are general stereotypes of programmers and artists, but they apply to most people. A programmer and an artist could put an hour or so a day away for going over the design, and the person paying them would be quite pleased because he wouldn''t have to pay a designer. The game would likely sell, if the main idea is voilence or a fight for power, etc.

------------------------------
Simple DirectMedia Layer:

Main Site - (www.libsdl.org)
Cone3D Tutorials- (cone3D.gamedev.net)
GameDev.net''s Tutorials - (Here)

OpenGL:

Main Site - (www.opengl.org)
NeHe Tutorials - (nehe.gamedev.net)
Online Books - (Red Book) (Blue Book)

well it''s an old argument but generally I see it like this: the only "game designers" I ever heard of were already talented programmers and artists who managed through their reputations and industry connections to swing it so they had complete artistic control over a project, most notably Peter Molyneaux and Black and White (I didn''t like that game). Sony have been known to hire game designers in the past but the way I heard it was they never did any useful work while they were there and all the best project ideas came from the artists and programmers, so they were all fired. Level design is the closest real job in the industry to the almost mythical title of game designer, and many people who say they want to be a game designer actually mean level designer. A level designer is a jack-of-all-trades if you like. An basic understanding of graphics theory and programming is necessary as well as knowledge of modelling and animation techniques and also sound manipulation because it is their job to put all this stuff together into a level which is, ideally, fun to play. They don''t have any more responsibility for game ideas than anyone else in the office. When you have a team of 20 talented, technically adept and creative people working together to develop games you most certainly do not need to pay someone else to come in and have a few ideas about what kind of game to make. The conceptual design process is very important, hence it is imperative that the team doing the design work are well aware of the physical process of making a game, the limitations of software, hardware, time and money etc. The only people really qualified to design a game are the people who will have to program it. Ideas are everywhere, they live in the atmosphere like bacteria. You can''t sell them, you can''t eat them, you can,t even wipe your arse with them, they ain''t worth bugger all. Am I wrong?

-

Geocyte Has Committed Suicide.

GeoCyte...you''re not *entirely* wrong.

Ideas are everywhere, but good ideas are not. A good idea that is well implemented by a talented person or team is worth gold! And with gold you can buy food to eat, toilet paper to wipe your arse, etc.

R.

In order to keep me motivated to continue my project is to discuss my work constantly witht the project lead, and also read all the good things he has to say about my work on the website... Both of these things continue my interest in the project and delay those ..."oh, i''ll take just one week off to work on something a little shorter..."

Perhaps my argument is backed up solely by my narrative background. Before I started programming, I was an artist and a writer. Taking several classes, and learned a whole lot from thousands of rejections and excuses, I developed a natural way to design a piece of art* so that it is interesting.

*: By art I mean anything; Whether a story plot, class member function (oddly enough), or even a game.


I''m not bragging, I am merely backing up the previous argument about how good designers are usually skilled writers. I believe this very much. Not because writers are the key to a good game, but because the way writers usually think. I often classify I good author as someone who always asks "why", and comes up with a solution for it.

Now, being relevant to game development, designers should be the ones who know at least a little bit about all aspects of the development team, just as Drizzt has confirmed, because what good is a designer if he doesn''t know what each other person is capable of? He/she is more of an author than a designer.

Designers come in all shapes and sizes, I know, but even a half-orc designer knows that you need to work with every single person on the team to develop a good game. You have to work with the musician and help him figure out the right mood sounds, sound effects for something, or even the background music. They must work with the artists and let them know what kind of texture should be on the one-eyed fat-man zombie-hybrid thing.

In theory, I have always thought that a true designer isn''t really one person. If you think about it, if you have a good enough gamedev group than you will probably have some pretty good minds. Good minds are always going to debate with one another until perfection is achieved. (Not really perfection, but more a mutually agreement of how the game shall take form).

So what I am trying to say is that it is possible to assume that the role of the game designer is only complete with the minds of all other aspects of game development. Without one, you won''t have good design. Think about it: Whats a game without good textures? Whats a game with no sound (albeit there are some you don''t need sound in)? What''s a game with no engine? (Well, it''s not a game)

Anyway, just thought that I''d toss in a few more gold pieces,
~Dwarf


Complete amatures whose only relevant skill is programming undertake to design games with no further preparation than their own experience as game players. Those who overrate their own understanding undercut their own potential for learning.