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Turn Based Tactical Strategy

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Yes!

I love turn based strategy games, and I wish there were more.

X-COM : UFO Defense
X-COM : Terror from the deep
X-COM : Apocalypse
Nintendo''s "Wars" Series (newer is Advance Wars for GBA)
I remember playing a game on the Game Gear a long time ago, Shinning Forces I think.
Gem Fire (SNES)
Fire Emblem (SNES)
Jagged Alliance
"something" Incubator

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I play them. And they are easier to make. No collision detection, no real-time AI, etc. So while they may be less popular, development is less costly, or should be in most cases.

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Yes, Shining Force is an excellent turn based strategy game. You can download a genesis/megadrive emulator and a Shining Force or Shining Force II ROM and your away. Not that I''m suggesting you do this unless you own the original of course.
I still play the game now.

''Your theory of a donut shaped universe is intriguing Homer'' - Stephen Hawking

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Yep FFT, Tactics Ogre, and Shinning Force are the three best examples of the genre...

Oh wait, then there''s the X-COM series... they were pretty damned good too.

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Have any of you played Avernum from SpiderwebSoftware? Its a turn based rpg and when you fight you control each of your party individually on the game map(its not like a console rpg where, you know, the camera cuts out to some stupid fight scene: this is the one thing I hate most about console rpgs.); its like a squad based small unit turn-based fantasy combat system that is really fun if your into that kind of thing. You can have you fighters block dungeon hallways and doorways while your magic users rain death from protected positions. Its cool because if you use good tactics then you can beat enemy parties that are way tougher than you.

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quote:

Gem Fire (SNES)



Gem Fire was badass. That bastard Eselred really burned me up, he had half the map and a wizard AND the red dragon.

------------
- outRider -

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Don''t forget fallout tactics. Though the turn based part was a little bit screwy...

I would pay big money for a multiplayer x-com (not the silly x-com by email game). I mean a really campaign game like the original x-com -- you know one player plays aliens other x-com and the aliens try to subvert the govts of the world while x-com tries to get the aliens on their home planet.

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Xcuse me, you are forgetting Front Mission (NES) here ... there is also a Front Mission 3 for PSX, but I havent played that ... someone said it kinda sucked. Then there is Red Sun for PS2 ...

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quote:
Original post by Bandecko
Multiplayer Turn Based Tactical Strategy.

The reasoning behind me posting this. Needed a quick popularity poll really.


I have put a *lot* of thought into this particular style of game. We could probably have a pretty interesting discussion about it.

One primary concern with multiplayer is how do you keep the pace up, especially when "multi" can be more than 2. That is one of the fundamental problems with all multiplayer turn based games.

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I love SRPG games. By the way Front Mission is for Super Famicom its a Japan only game by the one and only Squaresoft. They recently ported it to the Wonderswan Color which is a portable system like the Gameboy Advance. The good news is that next month comes out the new Tactic Orge: The Knight of Lodis. Also some more good news is that Squaresoft is working on porting Final Fantasy Tactics to the Gameboy Advance.

If I ever make a game that works, lol, it will be a SRPG because they rule.

The problem is that right now all these games are single player. It would be nice to see a multiplayer version of one of these games. I am hoping that Squaresoft adds a multiplayer function to the Final Fantasy Tactics port for the Gameboy Advance to link up the GBA's together.

P.S >> If you liked Final Fantasy Tactics on the Playstation then you might want to rent or buy Hoshigami: Runing Blue Earth.



[edited by - Fifthcore on March 21, 2002 8:37:37 PM]

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I didn''t really like Tactics Ogre but it was funner than Hoshigami. That would be fun if FFT or Vandal Hearts 1 was multiplayer.

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Actually, on the PS1 port of Tactics Ogre, I believe there was a way to fight your army vs. a friend''s on memory card.

Two player is techincally multiplayer, right?

-scott

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I can''t believe no one here mentioned Heroes of Might and Magic (I, II, III and soon to be IV)... or Warlords... or Master of Orion 2... or Master of Magic... Civilisation (I, II, II, Alpha Centauri etc.) - these are some of the greatest turn-based games of all time, Heroes II I would put up there as THE best turn-based game of all time.

Note that the Heroes series and Warlords (Warlords II I think it is), all have multiplayer. Basically this comes in two different formats. Hot-seat multiplayer, where everyone sits around one computer and takes it in turn to have their go - or regular multiplayer, where everyone connects through the internet etc. turns are still taken one at a time, but there are usually certain things you can do (like look at the map etc.) while waiting for your next turn to come. Generally these are set up with options such as time limits on each turn etc. (or not) and things like that to help speed up gameplay.

Check out the Heroes of Might and Magic series - seriously, it''s one of the best around, I, II and III you can pick up pretty cheap, IV should be out in the next few months or so I think. Visit the 3do website if you want to know more (www.3do.com)... (while they did port HoMMIII to the playstation I think, you really need to play turn based strategy games on the PC to get the most out of them.)

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AnonPoster: Yeah, I''m aware of the pacing issue, I''m taking steps to prevent it from becoming a game of chess. Where each person takes 5 minutes to make a move. I''ll post more on it when I get more worked out.

And no, i didn''t forget Front Mission. FM3 was a very good game.

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quote:
Original post by BurntToast
I can''t believe no one here mentioned Heroes of Might and Magic (I, II, III and soon to be IV)... or Warlords... or Master of Orion 2... or Master of Magic... Civilisation (I, II, II, Alpha Centauri etc.) - these are some of the greatest turn-based games of all time, Heroes II I would put up there as THE best turn-based game of all time.

Note that the Heroes series and Warlords (Warlords II I think it is), all have multiplayer. Basically this comes in two different formats. Hot-seat multiplayer, where everyone sits around one computer and takes it in turn to have their go - or regular multiplayer, where everyone connects through the internet etc. turns are still taken one at a time, but there are usually certain things you can do (like look at the map etc.) while waiting for your next turn to come. Generally these are set up with options such as time limits on each turn etc. (or not) and things like that to help speed up gameplay.

Check out the Heroes of Might and Magic series - seriously, it''s one of the best around, I, II and III you can pick up pretty cheap, IV should be out in the next few months or so I think. Visit the 3do website if you want to know more (www.3do.com)... (while they did port HoMMIII to the playstation I think, you really need to play turn based strategy games on the PC to get the most out of them.)




These are actually Turn Based Strategy. The games I''m talking about is Turn Based Tactical Strategy. A fine line in difference.

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Yes BurntToast, Moo2 is more a 4x game. HoMM is sort of turn based strategy game but not really in the same sense. In Heroes of Might and Magic there is basically no strategy in battles, most of the strategy comes on the overhead map, choosing battles, moving around, etc.

I think what the orignal poster wants is more the square or hex grid sort of wargame.

About multiplayer, there is a big difference between having multiplayer and having *playable* multi-player. I remember I tried to play Master of Orion 2 with a friend multi-player, it just doesn''t work out. Takes too damn long, too much waiting around, etc. If you read up on Moo3 they realize this and one of their big pushes is to make it really feasible to play multi-player.

Anyway, here is my list of games I have played in this genre, and briefly what I thought about them.

----------------------

xcom - ufo defense - pc:
Cool. Create your own characters, setting up properly is important, reaction shots for ranged combat, etc. Best PC game of this type?

Fallout Tactics - PC
Couldn''t decide whether or not to be real time or turn based, so ended up sucking at both. Maps are too big and boring, useless skills and weapons clutter it, etc.

Fire Emblem (Japan, first SNES version)
Great character animations. (Small characters, but great animations) One step up from Shining Force level strategy, but still not all that much. Interesting character interactions. (Standing near your friends helps you out, etc)

Shining Force 1/2 (Genesis)
Not a whole lot of strategy, still fun game, but not very cerebral. Strategy is very basic, just put strong guys in front, weak guys in back. Without ability to level up and RPG elements would be pretty sucky. Couldn''t cut it just as a mission based game like Advance Wars. But other stuff makes up for that nicely. One notable thing is that you don''t go one side at a time, rather order is based on speed.

Feda (Japan, SNES game from makers of Shining Force)
Neat graphics and animation, other than that basically same exact system as Shining Force.

Earthlight (Japan SNES, military madness pseudo-sequel)
Purely mission based, no characters or RPG elements. Very similar to military madness, played on hex grid. Lots of strategy, don''t get to choose what units you have or your starting position so much of fun is figuring out each map and setting, "solving" it. Also implements "zones of control," where it is hard to move past enemy forces because they can control spaces adjacent to them and slow you down.

Earthlight 2 (Japan SNES, listed separately as very different from 1)
Also mission based, similar strategy to Earthlight 1 but graphics and style totally different. Battles take too long, units take too little damage.

Shin Megami Tensei Gaiden 1 (? First of 2 strategy games for SNES based on what is known as "summoner" in US)
WHen it came out had the best graphics I had seen on SNES. Sucky game though.

3rd? Super Robot War (Japan SNES)
Low strategy, comparable to Shining Force. But you must love Mazinger Z music, as well as "ghetto robot" (getta robo) and the Venus chick that shoots missiles out of her hip.

Advance Wars (GBA)
Similar to Eathlight 1. (Made by same people I think actually) Purely mission based, no levelling up or real plot, can''t choose what to bring. Lots of strategy, also implements zones of control, fun game.

Tactics Ogre (Japan SNES, also PS1 version is available)
THE game. strategy is far above any competitor. (Yes, even Final Fantasy tactics) Terrain plays a huge role, height differences, back attacks, etc. The "weight" system for movement is brilliant. The more you do in a turn and the more stuff you have equipped the slower your next turn comes. Finally, a game where equipping light equipment can actually be useful! For archers, it is better to plant on a rooftop and stay there than move all around, etc. You must think much more carefully about what to do because there are more tradeoffs. Also, in games where an entire side moves at once you can shift from one strong position to the next without any in-between, which is kind of dumb and leads to overly powerful defenses. You never have to expose yourself in those games for even a single turn if you plan properly, because you can just shift entire states instantly.

Maps are very well done, navigating terrain really matters a lot, especially on levels with deep water.

Downside is not in the gameplay but in the xp formula. Don''t get enough xp in a battle, so to level up you HAVE to do training mode, which is super boring. Terrible flaw in otherwise great game.

Vandal Hearts 2 (PS1)
Weird combat system, input moves then move at same time in pairs. Greatly favors larger force, and strategy becomes more about learning the AI patterns and abusing the system rather than real strategy.

Front Mission 1 (Japan SNES)
Intermediate strategy. You can build mechs from parts, but the problem is that usually one or two configs is better than all the rest. Like the best body, arms, and legs are just plain better in every way than any other pieces.

Because the graphics must be modular all the robots end up looking kind of the same. The animation and effects are excellent though, and NOTHING is more satisfying than a high damage chain hit, with shrapnel flying everywhere.

One big problem was that missiles were easily the best attack, because you could not be counter attacked when using them. And the missile animation was really long, and got very boring to watch after a while. (Cool at first, not after 500 times...) Also the use of missiles took away from some of the strategy like shooting off weapon arms or disabling legs. (Could destroy pieces of mechs)

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Re: Multiplayer Turn Based Tactical Strategy

If the biggest problem with making these games multiplayer is the waiting between turns, why not let everyone input their moves simultaneously? Then when everyone''s ready (or the timer runs out), the results are calculated and shown..

Would that detract from the turn-based aspect of the game? Any examples of games that have done this?

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Since its turned based its hard to have both people to input the moves at the same time. I think it was be better to have a 30 second timer for that person to move. If they don''t move in 30 seconds then either the turn is over or the computer moves for them. Thats how I plan on creating it in my game in the future after i learn more C++.

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