quote:Original post by solinear
All right, some things are the same, but it''s still very different. I could explain it to you, but I fear that would lead to very long posts... very long indeed.

I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but my posts ain’t exactly short.

quote:
Combat experience is better than training experience in every way. ….

I think it would help if we defined a few things.

First let’s define experience. From Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary we find the following:

An act of knowledge, one or more, by which single facts or general truths are ascertained; experimental or inductive knowledge; hence, implying skill, facility, or practical wisdom gained by personal knowledge, feeling or action; as, a king without experience of war.

Also in Webster’s we read a quote:

Experience may be acquired in two ways; either, first by noticing facts without any attempt to influence the frequency of their occurrence or to vary the circumstances under which they occur; this is observation; or, secondly, by putting in action causes or agents over which we have control, and purposely varying their combinations, and noticing what effects take place; this is experiment. --Sir J. Herschel.

I also like what the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition says regarding experience:

Active participation in events or activities, leading to the accumulation of knowledge or skill: Or, the knowledge or skill so derived.

Next we’ve got knowledge. Webster’s says:

That which is gained and preserved by knowing; instruction; acquaintance; enlightenment; learning; scholarship; erudition.

And from the American Heritage:

Familiarity, awareness, or understanding gained through experience or study.

Finally, what is skill? From Webster’s:

The familiar knowledge of any art or science, united with readiness and dexterity in execution or performance, or in the application of the art or science to practical purposes; power to discern and execute; ability to perceive and perform; expertness; aptitude; as, the skill of a mathematician, physician, surgeon, mechanic, etc.

And American Heritage:

Proficiency, facility, or dexterity that is acquired or developed through training or experience.

So what do we have? We’ve got knowledge and experience which combined yield skill. Skill then is based on one’s knowledge and experience. To increase knowledge or to gain experience is to increase in skill. Knowledge is gained through experience or study, and experience is gained from observing or doing.

Now let me try and make my paradigm fit within that framework. To increase knowledge is to increase skill. To increase experience is to increase both knowledge and skill (after all you learn from your mistakes, right?) Let’s take the extreme possibilities:

Study – large amount of knowledge gained, no experience
Practice – some amount of knowledge gained, some experience
Application – large amount of experience gained, small amount of knowledge

We need some kind of formula to determine one’s skill based on one’s knowledge and experience. What are the weights given to each? Does knowledge yield more skill than experience, or vice versa? What does observation of real life situations teach us? I would think that the ratio would vary depending on the type of skill. Say for skills which are less physical, then more knowledge would seemingly result in higher skills, and for more physically oriented skills I would think that experience would benefit more.

What about sword fighting? How about…

Sword Fighting Skill = 25% * Sword Fighting Knowledge + 75% * Sword Fighting Experience

Or not? But that’s not the only consideration. How fast can one increase one’s knowledge? How fast can one increase one’s experience? Doesn’t real life teach us that knowledge can be increase rather rapidly compared to experience (or wisdom, as it were)? One reason the frosty head is sometimes equated with wisdom, since it is assumed that all of those years must be worth a load of experience. So we need another formula or two:

Sword Fighting Study Gain = +10 Knowledge (K)/ unit time and +0 Experience (E)
Sword Fighting Practice Gain = +6 K / unit time and +2 E / unit time
Sword Fighting Application Gain = +2 K / unit time and +4 E / unit time

Quick and basic (i.e., no skill curve) example. Several troopers, all with 100 units of time to spend. One spends all 100 in Sword Application, resulting in Sword Knowledge of 200 and Sword Experience of 400. His Sword Skill is thus 25%*200+75%*400=50+300=350. Another spends all 100 in Sword Study, yielding a Sword Knowledge of 1000 (this dude KNOWS the sword ). His Sword Skill is 25%*1000=250. One other dude opts to practice his 100 points away and gains 600 Knowledge and 200 Experience resulting in a Sword Skill of 150+150=300.

So this bears out what you’ve been getting at and seems to make sense as well. Let’s mix it up a little though. This time our first trooper studies half the time and practices for the remainder, yielding Knowledge of 50*10+50*6=500+300=800 and Experience of 50*0+50*2=100. His skill is thusly 200+75=275. The next trooper studies 50 and applies (i.e., fights) 50 yielding K of 50*10+50*2=600 and E of 50*0+50*4=200. Skill is 150+150=300. Last trooper practices 50 and applies 50 yielding 50*6+50*2=300+100=400 Knowledge and 50*2+50*4=100+200=300 Experience. His skill is 100+225=325.

Further examples wouldn’t be productive without a learning/skill curve, where it gets harder to gain knowledge/experience after a certain level (i.e., 0-255=100% gain, 256-383=50% gain, 384-447=25% gain, etc.) as the troopers would simply “equal out” and have the same skill.

So everything you’ve been saying seems to be held out with the above model. And yes, I suppose I really would need to have two items in the database for each skill (knowledge and experience). Where does that leave me?

Well, what about the environment the skill is applied in? In our first example the first trooper fought 100% of the time. Naturally, depending on the unit of time he could be considered a “battle hardened” veteran, unaffected by the tension of combat. The second trooper studied 100% of the time and of course had no combat experience. Never took his nose out of the books. Finally, the third trooper had a little taste of combat experience from his practicing but nowhere near the level of real life (i.e., his life was never in any real danger). This is where my Combat Environment Modifier comes into play.

Combat Environment Modifier Study Gain = +0% / unit time
Combat Environment Modifier Practice Gain = +1/3% / unit time
Combat Environment Modifier Combat Gain = +1% / unit time

Combat Trooper with 100 units of time in Sword Fighting Application would thus have a 100% Combat Modifier. Book Trooper with 100 units of Study has 0%. But remember from my charts that we minimized this at something like 20%, so he’s got a 20%. Finally, Practice Trooper has 100 units of time / 3 = 33%. Their modified skills in the heat of combat, with life threatening enemies all around? Combat Trooper has, unsurprisingly, a 350 Skill. Practice Trooper has a modified skill of 100. Finally, Book Trooper loses out big time with a modified combat skill of 50 (but he KNOWS his swords!)

Do the same thing, but with some kind of Academic Environment Modifier for modifying their skills used in a practice or non-stressful environment.

Shall we revisit our 10 year Rifleman turned 10 year Practiced Martial Artist vs. 10 year Combat Martial Artist argument? Gee, I thought you’d never ask! Well, if their combat environment modifiers are the same (after both had 10 years of combat they would be) then it boils down to a case of Book/Practice Trooper vs. Combat Trooper. But wait! I could argue that Martial Arts has a different ratio than Sword Fighting, and I would think real life would bear me out. In other words unarmed combat seems a lot more mental than sword fighting. Maybe:

Martial Arts Skill = 50% * Martial Arts Knowledge + 50% * Martial Arts Experience

Thusly, our Book Trooper would have 1000K/0E and a Skill of 500, Practice Trooper would have 600K/200E and a Skill of 400, and Combat Trooper would have 200K/400E for a Skill of 300. Hah! I win!

Ok, ok, just kidding. But there would certainly be skills where such would be the case. Tell me this, what do you think the ratio for Martial Arts Skill should be, Knowledge vs. Experience? How about for Sword Fighting?

quote:
I do think that general combat experience is important (indeed, Offense and Defense are two of the skills that I have put in the design that I''m working on), but it isn''t a situation where all skill is equal.

What you’re talking about here, and what you termed above “nerves of steel” is what my Combat Environment Modifier. An example would be the ability to calmly and effectively continue the assault while under heavy fire. Green troops would be prone to cower, flinch away from attacks, or even flee.

quote:
And no, the trained master won''t win against the combat experienced soldier in a sparring match, he will lose very quickly and probably brutally. Why? The combat soldier has one objective: Win. The alternative is death or becoming a prisoner/slave/whatever if he''s (un)lucky enough to not die. The trained master has the same objective, but the consequences of losing are... oh yeah, nearly nothing beyond a little embarassment and a lower portion of the ''kitty''.

Well, if you put their gloves on and tell them to kill each other maybe. But by placing himself under the restriction of a sparring match, a lot of the killer’s skills won’t transfer. The trained master will be in his element, the killer with one leg in, one leg out.

quote:
If you want to maybe put both in there, make training safer, but only worth 66 or 75% of combat experience and take longer. Also, put both in there for each skill. You can put combat in as a general experience based skill or attribute, but the only thing that will teach in and of itself will be the nerves to stand there and not run in the face of the enemy or freak when you get hurt.

I think I covered this good above. I have redefined my model to include two attributes for each skill, Knowledge and Experience, which combined yields a resulting Skill Level for that skill. This Skill Level is modified by an Environment Modifier depending on the environment the skill is used in. Be it Combat, Practice, In The Middle of a Lava Field, etc.

Again, I can’t thank you enough for the dialogue. Very constructive. Can we keep it up?

Care,
Chris Rasmus

Florida, USA
RTS Engine in Development
http://www.knology.net/~heaven
Jesus is LORD!