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Is this guys on crack?

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Why Shun Delphi http://www.mk.dmu.ac.uk/~gperkins/language/debate/ydelphi.htm This article got me a bit pissed off, as a good 90% of my programming education was done through Pascal. It seems to me this guy really didn''t understand "programming" in the first place and how the underlying Object Pascal language can be used very effectively to teach the basic programming ideals. the IDE just serves as that, an IDE. Delphi doesn''t force you to program GUIs, but it seems like that''s all he thought it could do.

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Moron. I don''t think any of his arguements were anywhere near valid. He obviously hadn''t learnt the language himself, so perhaps it''s a good thing he decided not to teach it to students.

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quote:
We should be teaching fundamental principles of programming that transfer to other development environments and scale up to programming in the large. Unstructured Microsoft screen painting is not such a principle.

I agree, because Delphi is RAD and therefore rubbish. Oh...wait... there''s a code editor. I don''t think that person really believes what he said - after all, if you''re _REALLY_ worried about RAD for teaching then just tell them to compile a console program!

The guy''s clearly a hillbilly. Ignore him.

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People tend to take the path of least resistance. Delphi offers such a path. Hence, it IS probably not initially the best teaching tool for programming, unless carefully monitored.

However, the concepts of RAD are also important to teach to students somewhere down the line. It has to be done after you learn to do it the hard way though.


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.

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MadKeithV: the principles were taught to me using console applications in C and C++. Delphi can achieve that just as easily (File->New, select "console application"). Pascal was initially designed as a teaching language so is quite well suited for this.

However, it may or may not be the best language from which to learn the basic principles. I''m pretty certain it depends on the teacher rather than the student -- which kinda makes this argument moot.

It''s the disinformation that I resent - you can _easily_ avoid the visual aspects of Delphi if you want. There is nothing forcing you into RAD, and if you believe basics can be taught better without RAD then it''s very easy to do so in Delphi. Most people just don''t try.

Alimonster

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It really seems that the guy was thinking Delphi was nothing more than another Visual Basic, simply because it was RAD. I guess he didn''t do his homework... He seems to have no problem with the fact C++ Builder and Visual C++ allow for quick GUI application development yet they can also create console apps (with a focus more on the concepts than "screen painting"). So it baffles me as to why he didn''t see it in Delphi, especially when this idea of learning the core concepts through simple straight foward console applications is on Borland''s site! And notabley Delphi is a bit closer to english and thus a little easier to learn, as well as to teach, for first time programming students.

http://www.borland.com/education/delphi/console.html

http://www.borland.com/education/papers/eddelphi/eddelphi.html

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My old teacher used to say: the best programming language is what you master the most. Indeed, this works for ALL kinds of language comparisons. In the same way, the guy may have said that FRENCH is bad for beginners, so they''d learn SPANISH first. My point is, you can start learning almost every language with the same success and that''ll only depend your *Effort* and your *Teacher*.
Quoting MadKeithV: "It has to be done after you learn to do it the hard way though". You see, there''re always SEVERAL ways of reaching your destination. Which way - depends on you.
Personally, I cannot make assumptions which can be wrong, but Graham Perkins (author of the article) is WRONG at least because he does make them (i.e. defining things without any proof).

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It doesn''t really matter what programming language you start with. I for my part started with DOS Pascal...but Delphi is great for starters. I mean, you can write super-complex application or you can just play around.
The awesome debugger, the great help...that''s all a beginner needs. Even Visual Basic (which is often referred to as a beginner language) sucks when it comes to documentation and debugger.

So let him talk! Even if he does not know what he''s talking about...


> It is very specific to the Windows/Intel platform.

Wrong! See CLX.

> The connectivity/integration facilities still keep it firmly within the Microsoft world.

Wrong again!

> The data storage is only via SQL, so application object structures cannot be stored.

Bullsh**! You can store application objects since Version 1.0


> The GUI toolkit is just a screen painter; it doesn''t support hierarchical structuring of the interface.

Yes it does! It''s got plenty of tools for that (ActionManager, etc.)

> Delphi does not deliver a proper model for interactive software architecture, encapsulation, or separation of concerns

I have no idea what that means

> The Object Pascal language behind the interface is crude and complicated

Take a look at C++ and think again! Object Pascal is super-easy compared to everything else. Even object oriented Basic languages like VB.

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The two things I always hated about VB, for beginners, is the fact it would implicitly typecast your variables (which leads to confusion about differences between the datatypes) and that there was no easy way to write a console application.

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